D&D 5E Sharpshooter/Great Weapon Master and Why They Are Broken 101.

[UngeheuerLich]

But your solution is just not working as a great weapon feat... and with nothing to compensate the feat is trash...

 

[Helldritch]

3 different threads and I still see no solid arguments that could make me agree that these feats are broken. Alone they are not disruptive. With synergy from spells or situations they are a force to reckon with. Work as intended in my campaings.

 

[shoak1]

No, the game was specifically balanced around not having these feats. Changing the game around whatever optional rules you opt-in to is intended.
Having people complain about these feats being OP when they don't change anything else about their game is like having people complain about how their IKEA chairs fall apart when they skip the bit in the instructions where they need to use screws.

"Hey, fellow designers - let's wrap this up, we gotta get this game out today!!!!!"

"But the feat list is only half done?!?!?! and the CR ratings still need some balancing, etc....."

"No worries - just slap an "optional" label on the feats (and anything else we haven't finished) and call it a day. Besides, its mostly the power gamers/gamists/combat lovers that like that crap anyways, and worry about CR "balance" (as if that's even an objective thing right?)."

"Yeah, and they screwed us over in 4e - you're right - us rpgers don't owe them anything. They lost - we won - so they can SUCK ITTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!"

"LOL - I got an idea - lets toss a +5/-10 mechanic into Sharpshooter to really mess w/them!!!!!"

"ROTFL - yeah - I can see the thirty page whining thread now (Is SS OP? Vote Now!!!!) lolololololo.......Stupid power gamers !!!!!!!!!"

 

[Corwin]

Bitter, party of one...

 

[Flamestrike]

Its OK a complete lack of magical armor and shields is a little odd by level 9 though.

Hell you find some of that in LMoP.

I gave one guy a +1 shield. You can give one other guy +1 armor as well (or adamantine armor, your choice).

I assume non magical equipment from the PHB within reason is fine?

Yep, go nuts.

I have a 6am start tomorrow and a 12 hour day so I'll have to finish off those PCs later.

You dont have to be too detailed. We dont really have to go through it blow by blow.

To help you out here is the adventure summary.

'Your PC [pick one] has been approached by [his church or someone equally important to him] with dire news. The infamous Dragonlord Morkarr, dark ruler of the northern wastes, is on the verge of forging an unholy alliance with foul creatures from the Underdark realm of Mindshatter; a kingdom of Illithids and aberrations most alien!"

If this alliance is allowed to come to fruition, Morkarrs dark realm and Mindshatter will become an unstoppable force of evil that will lay waste to the northern kingdoms [including the homelands of a second PC, including his family].

Your contact explains to you that an emissary from both Morkarrs dark realm, and from Mindshatter are present at the Dragonlords tower to the north, and the alliance is to be consumated via a dark ritual... a ritual that will conclude in just over three hours time. That is; unless your group can stop it!

Your contact has spells of teleportation prepared to get you to the outskirts of the dark tower (and has provided all PCs with the healing potions I noted above when doling out gear); from there your group will have to infiltrate the dark tower and put an end to the alliance by slaying the emissaries of both powers. Only by killing both emissaries before dawn (in just over three hours) will the ritual be stopped. Slaying just the one emissary will not be enough to totally extinguish the dark magic of the ritual'

'If you fail, a darkness will sweep over the northern lands, permitting creatures most foul to rise up from the Underdark... thus condemning the souls of tens of thousands of free folk to a lifetime of thralldom and worse'​

I have the encoutners ready to go. Happy to [broadly] run you through them whenever youre ready.

 

[Zardnaar]

I gave one guy a +1 shield. You can give one other guy +1 armor as well (or adamantine armor, your choice).



Yep, go nuts.



You dont have to be too detailed. We dont really have to go through it blow by blow.

To help you out here is the adventure summary.

'Your PC [pick one] has been approached by [his church or someone equally important to him] with dire news. The infamous Dragonlord Morkarr, dark ruler of the northern wastes, is on the verge of forging an unholy alliance with foul creatures from the Underdark realm of Mindshatter; a kingdom of Illithids and aberrations most alien!"

If this alliance is allowed to come to fruition, Morkarrs dark realm and Mindshatter will become an unstoppable force of evil that will lay waste to the northern kingdoms [including the homelands of a second PC, including his family].

Your contact explains to you that an emissary from both Morkarrs dark realm, and from Mindshatter are present at the Dragonlords tower to the north, and the alliance is to be consumated via a dark ritual... a ritual that will conclude in just over three hours time. That is; unless your group can stop it!

Your contact has spells of teleportation prepared to get you to the outskirts of the dark tower (and has provided all PCs with the healing potions I noted above when doling out gear); from there your group will have to infiltrate the dark tower and put an end to the alliance by slaying the emissaries of both powers. Only by killing both emissaries before dawn (in just over three hours) will the ritual be stopped. Slaying just the one emissary will not be enough to totally extinguish the dark magic of the ritual'

'If you fail, a darkness will sweep over the northern lands, permitting creatures most foul to rise up from the Underdark... thus condemning the souls of tens of thousands of free folk to a lifetime of thralldom and worse'​

I have the encoutners ready to go. Happy to [broadly] run you through them whenever youre ready.

I can already see where this is going lol. Mindful ayers really there are like 3 intelligence saves in the game.

I'm not claiming those feats make you invincible. If you cherry pick monsters and make scenarios specifically to hose a party it doesn't prove much.
A heap of flying spellcasters could hose a lot of parties regardless of what feats and class options were used.

I can make the characters up 100% if you like do you eat to test it on roll d20 or here at EnWorld. Is there really any point win or lose in a contrived scenario.

Compare those feats to other feats or published official 5E adventures. If a DM has to work hard to accommodate these feats or target rare saves with illithids it might kind of prove my point.

 

[Flamestrike]

I can already see where this is going lol. Mindful ayers really there are like 3 intelligence saves in the game.

Actually If you really want to know there is only the one encounter featuring a MF.

5 x 9th level PCs have an XP budget of:

[FONT=&quot]Easy: 2750 XP[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Medium: 5500 XP[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hard: 8000 XP[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deadly: 12000 XP[/FONT]

I can use the upper ends of those figures seeing as the party are tooled up with magic items (this tips the scales in favor of the party). Around 8000 XP is the [medium-hard] break point I aimed for generally.

For the sake of clarity, the encounters are (broadly, with spells changed, and encounter conditions omitted) in no particular order:

1 x Adult black dragon [not in lair/ spellcasting variant] - 11,500 XP [Hard]
1 x Mind flayer arcanist, 1 x Intellect devourer, 1 x Umber Hulk, 5 x Thug thralls - 9,500 XP [Hard]
1 x Orc war chief, 1 x Wyvern, 2 x Orogs, 2 x Eyes of Gruumsh, 10 x Orcs - 7,900 XP [Medium]
2 x Mezzoloths, 1 x Ghast, 6 x Ghouls (undead have blindsight 60') - 7,050 XP [Medium]
6 x Hook Horrors - 8,400 XP [Hard]
1 x Frost giant, 1 x Winter wolf, 5 x Dire wolves - 7,900 XP [Medium]
2 x Helmed horrors, 2 x Flameskulls (add +1d6 fire damage to Helmed horrors) - 8,800 XP [Medium]

Note that I havent multiplied encounter difficulty for critters CR 2 or less (as per the DMG guidelines); the XP for those critters is instead added to the total after mulitplication for difficulty for other (CR 3+) critters.

You now have a massive advantage knowing what (and how many, and more or less the exact composition) of encounters coming your way. Normally the PCs would have to guess, conserving spell slots etc in case there is one more encounter around the corner.

I'm not claiming those feats make you invincible. If you cherry pick monsters and make scenarios specifically to hose a party it doesn't prove much. A heap of flying spellcasters could hose a lot of parties regardless of what feats and class options were used.

The encounters I picked were a broad range of different critter types, with different strengths and weaknesses.

Like I said, the point isnt to kerb stomp the PCs (or let them steamroll the encounters) - it's to challenge and entertain the players.

I can make the characters up 100% if you like do you eat to test it on roll d20 or here at EnWorld. Is there really any point win or lose in a contrived scenario.

Man Im happy to just play it by ear. No need to go into it in any great detail (or create PCs in any great detail). I can just set the encounter up (describe it to you) and we can play out a few rounds of each encounter and see if GWM and Sharpshooter are 'broken' compared to (say) the full casters in the party or any other option.

 

[Zardnaar]

Almost every encounter(6/8) there had saving throws involved with critters with special attacks. Saves are one of the things where 5E kind of struggles with due to saves not scaling its a weak point of every party in 5E for the most part.

You are also taking full advantage of stupid rules with low CR critters as 5E stuff has lots of hit points. 3.5 also had a similar rule.

You may not be using spellcasters but every encounter has some sort of AoE in it and a pair of flames skulls which I referenced as being an abuse earlier. Getting hit with multiple fireballs can suck in 5E and 2 flameskulls can drop 32d6 damage. The flameskull in LMoP is a pain and I have used a pair of them to almost TPK a party when combined with other monsters.

8 encounters involving AoEs can grind down/tpk anything in 5E.

A spellcasting Dragon a spellcasting Illithid, 7 critters with paralyzing attacks+ demons, 16 Orcs ignoring the encounter multipliers for low CR critters. I'm trying to work out why a few of those critters would even associate with each other. Orcs having a pet Wyvern maybe.

I have used a few tricks like that myself just not generally all at once. I can't think of to many 5E adventures with encounters like that either.

 

[Helldritch]

And yet, that is the kind of encounters that my groups meet on a regular basis. The GWM and the SS will plow through the critters and your casters and other characters will also have a chance to shine. I am almost exclusively a DM but I would love to play in such a campaing where diversity rules.

I am pretty sure that these fight will be challenging enough. As soon as I can, I'll try to make some simulations with one of my group that has both GWM and SS in it. Yes I keep an upto date copy of every characters in my groups. It helps me in designing balanced enounters.

 

[Zardnaar]

And yet, that is the kind of encounters that my groups meet on a regular basis. The GWM and the SS will plow through the critters and your casters and other characters will also have a chance to shine. I am almost exclusively a DM but I would love to play in such a campaing where diversity rules.

I am pretty sure that these fight will be challenging enough. As soin as I can, I'll try to make some simulations with one of my group that has both GWM and SS in it. Yes I keep an upto date copy of every characters in my groups. It helps me in designing balanced enounters.

Its doable but a few blown saves can be a TPK.