D&D 5E Totally underwhelmed by 5e bladesinger, am I missing something?

[Flamestrike]

Moving silently using a stealth check is a valid use of a dex (stealth) check.

Which is achieved in combat via the Hide action.

If the Pixie had two levels in Rogue, she could become invisible as an action, Hide as a bonus action, and then move away as silent as the wind.

What if there were several pixies all at range, invisible and moving quietly? Can a character track them all even if they don't use the hide action?

If they're moving silently, they've already used the Hide action.

 

[Flamestrike]

It being a 'feature' is debatable and so I wont clutter up this thread after this since I don't like arguing subjectivity. Its extra dice rolling that we don't need and we are not used to playing like this. So we will stick with the tried and true we have used since at least 1993. Not sure what it has to do with anything, but making people obsolete is not an issue at our table, and has never been.

The only time this might come into play is when its not in combat or its really quite for some reason? Anyway, back to the bladesinger! Which I like for even a wizard who sits in the back and never even enters melee. Great for panic button moments when you have no way to escape.

There is no extra dice rolling. But if you want to turn the invisiblity spell into 'cant attack me at all, defeats all senses. no rolling required' I suggest changing the name of the spell from 'invisibility' to 'imperceivability'.

 

[Prism]

Which is achieved in combat via the Hide action.

If the Pixie had two levels in Rogue, she could become invisible as an action, Hide as a bonus action, and then move away as silent as the wind.



If they're moving silently, they've already used the Hide action.

Where does it say moving silently requires the hide action first? Skill use in general does not require a specific action - it leaves it in the hands of the DM to decide on. So you could play it like you say and require a hide action (and movement else there is no point) to hide your location in combat. Or you could allow a move silently dex check as a move action if you wished. Both are correct and both are supported by the rules as long as you accept that hiding is not an exclusive way of an opponent not knowing where you are.

I am certainly playing the move silently only option as having to do stuff like giving pixies levels in rogue just to make them perform as designed in combat is not something I'm going to do.

 

[Flamestrike]

I guess I am coming at this more from the DM side where I would want to create an encounter with pixies, drow etc that rely heavily on their stealth abilities without me having to force the must hide action to make use of them each round.

Give them cunning action (the ability to hide as a bonus action). Done.

Goblins, shadow demons and a few other critters come with this out of the box.

That way they can turn invisible and attempt to Hide straight away (instead of remaining exposed to attack for a turn).

Not that you need it with something like a Pixie. On thier turn, they cast invisibility (somehow) and fly up. Being invisible they are immune to AoO's as they move. Your PCs now get one turn to hit them with ranged attacks (at disadvantage) but not targetted spells (they're invisible so they're immune to these) before the Pixies get to attempt to Hide on turn 2.

They get +7 to Stealth, so next turn they should be all but hidden when they take the Hide action.

 

[Prism]

Give them cunning action (the ability to hide as a bonus action). Done.

Goblins, shadow demons and a few other critters come with this out of the box.

That way they can turn invisible and attempt to Hide straight away (instead of remaining exposed to attack for a turn).

Not that you need it with something like a Pixie. On thier turn, they cast invisibility (somehow) and fly up. Being invisible they are immune to AoO's as they move. Your PCs now get one turn to hit them with ranged attacks (at disadvantage) but not targetted spells (they're invisible so they're immune to these) before the Pixies get to attempt to Hide on turn 2.

They get +7 to Stealth, so next turn they should be all but hidden when they take the Hide action.

I don't need to give cunning action to all creatures that need to be stealthy when I can just let anything move silently when already invisible or fully concealed. Stealth rules in combat are not remotely codified to the degree you are suggesting and fully support both of our interpretations.

The way I am suggesting running it (fully supported by the rules) is simply how every edition before this has run it. You go invisible, you sneak away. If someone wants to locate you they must beat your stealth check with a perception check. So what that it allows a spellcaster to occasionally replicate what a rogue can do.

You require using the hide action in combat to do the same thing. I'm fine with that too as an option but I like my version better when already unseen. In my version the pixies get to attack every round, move silently and repeat. In yours the pixies have to spend every other round re-hiding.

You seem to be telling everyone in this thread that your way is the only way, when its not. Stealth rules are openly vague and this is another example.

Btw, I think we may have to give this thread back soon

 

[Flamestrike]

Where does it say moving silently requires the hide action first?

The Hide action is how you use Stealth in combat. It has its own rules. Remember in 5E 'hidden' is expressly defined as 'unseen AND unheard'. If you're hidden you must be both unseen and unheard, and in order to be hidden in combat you need to use the Hide action (and have the right environment to be hidden; such as being behind total cover, invisible, the enemy has his back to you or whatever).

Remember Stealth is both 'Move silently' and 'Hide in shadows'. Perception is both 'Spot' and 'Listen'.

If you want to sneak up on an Orc who has his back to you, you need to take the Hide action, rolling higher than his passive perception (and then move). Next round you can attack him from hiding.

If you're a Rogue of at least 2nd level, you can do this (Hide, and then move) and still make an attack as your action once you get there.

This is the whole point of cunning action. It lets Rogues hide and attack (or do other things like hide and dash, letting them double move while still moving silently, meaning they can move twice as fast as any other PC while hidden and remaining quiet).

Once you succesfully hide (take the hide action and roll higher than your opponents passive perception score) you cant be attacked unless your opponent makes a very lucky guess (and in some instances your opponenent may not even be aware you are there).

If your opponent wants to find you (assuming he is aware you are around somewhere) he must use his action on the Search action (and then roll higher than your stealth result with his perception check).

Example:

Jimmy the Wizard (Stealth +5) is in melee with an Ogre (Passive perception 8, -2 Perception bonus). Several rounds have passed, and Jimmy is down to his last 2nd level slot, and has only 3 hit points remaining. Things are looking grim.

Jimmys turn: Jimmy turns and starts moving backwards chanting a spell. [He uses his 2nd level slot and casts Invisibility. He now moves 30' away from the Ogre. The Ogre cannot make attacks of opportunity against Jimmy as Jimmy is invisible and Attacks of Opportunity can only be made at 'a target you can see'].
Ogres turn: The Ogre blinks in surprise, sniffs the air and advances forward swinging his club in the direction he saw Jimmy turn towards, following the funny smell of the Wizards pouches, and footprints in the soft dirt left by the Wizard. [DM makes an attack at disadvantage as the Ogre cant see Jimmy anymore, in line with the Invisible condition]. He misses [the DM rolls a 2 and a 15].

Next round:

Jimmys turn: Jimmy smartly decides to go slowly, sticking to harder ground to avoid leaving footprints. He quiets himself, holding his spell component pouches still as he moves, and stifles his heavy laboured breathing, tiptoeing off towards the rooms exist. [Jimmy now attempts the Hide action. He rolls a 12, adding his +5 for Stealth getting a total of 17. The Ogres passive perception is 8, so Jimmy easily Hides from the Ogre]. Jimmy now moves 30' away from the Ogre, as quiet as a mouse.
Ogres turn: The Ogre is dumbfounded. The footprints he was following seem to stop suddenly, and he cant smell or hear the Wizard anymore. He stops and smells the air [The Ogre attempts the Search action. He rolls a 14, subtracting his perception bonus of -2, giving him a result of 12 vs Jimmys Stealth result of 17. The Ogre fails, and spends his action sniffing the air and looking around the room]. The Ogre has no idea where Jimmy is.

Notice how even if the Ogre rolled a 19 on his perception check (for a Perception result of 17, and just enough to spot Jimmy) he has already used his action to Search this turn, so he can't also attack Jimmy on the same round (although he can still move, so will probably advance to where Jimmy is). This gives Jimmy another chance on his next turn (which Jimmy gets before the Ogre can act again) to again attempt the Hide action before the Ogre can act. With Jimmys high Stealth score, its very likely that Jimmy again rolls higher than an 8 (the Ogres passive perception score) on the next turn, and again gets to sneak away from the frustrated Ogre before the Ogre can attack him all over again.

That is how it is supposed to work. There is an action economy at play here that you are houseruling away by granting perception checks and stealth checks (covered by the Search action and the Hide action respectively) as free actions (they're supposed to be actions, or a bonus action with cunning action or vanish and ther Hide action).

You're nerfing Rogues in particular by making cunning action [Hide] less useful than it is, and you're buffing an already potent 2nd level spell [invisibility] way more than it should be.

 

[Flamestrike]

Incidentally imagine how potent a Rogue with greater invisibility is.

Every round he gets to [attack] as his action [at advantage with sneak attack] and then [hide] as a bonus action [and move if he wants, both before and after the attack].

Coupled with a high Dex and expertise in Stealth [and maybe even the 11th level Rogue ability that lets him treat any dice roll on a skill check of less than 10 as a 10), he's virtually immune to any and all return attacks barring a very lucky guess or a passive perception score of 25+.

With elven boots on he also gets advantage on his stealth checks to Hide.

You and others kind of want to hand this ability out to anyone who becomes invisible with a 2nd level slot. They become more than just invisible, they become totally imperceptable, and with no Hide action required (or the Hide action being handed out as a free action].

In RAW, a Wizard with greater invisiblity needs to use every other action on the Hide action (and still needs to defeat the passive perception score of those he wants to hide from). Then as long as he stays hidden (no one succesfully uses the Search action to find him, and he doesnt otherwise reveal himself with an attack) he can run rampant.

As soon as he attacks, he remains invisible (greater invisiblity) but becomes attackable again (at disadvantage) for a single round until he uses another action on his following turn to again Hide. In effect, he opens himself up for a few seconds for an attack in return before he gets the chance to Hide again.

If he dipped 2 levels of Rogue for cunning action, he could [attack][hide][move] all on the same turn. Those Rogue levels make him... a lot better at stealth.

If you look closely, this is a feature and not a bug.

 

[Prism]

The Hide action is how you use Stealth in combat. It has its own rules. Remember in 5E 'hidden' is expressly defined as 'unseen AND unheard'. If you're hidden you must be both unseen and unheard, and in order to be hidden in combat you need to use the Hide action (and have the right environment to be hidden; such as being behind total cover, invisible, the enemy has his back to you or whatever).

The Hide action is A way of using stealth in combat. Its not the only way. You can use stealth in combat without hiding if the situation calls for it. There are several other examples of DEX checks (stealth) given that heavily relate to moving silently

Equally hiding (using the hide action) is A way of being difficult to locate in combat. Its not the only way. You can require an opponent to make a perception check to locate an opponent that is invisible and silent whenever you think appropriate. An opponent teleports to an unexpected or unseen location. A creature starts the encounter behind cover even though they were not hiding. A creature is in darkness and moving quietly.

I totally get your examples. I just don't agree that's the only way of ruling this.

 

[Prism]

You and others kind of want to hand this ability out to anyone who becomes invisible with a 2nd level slot. They become more than just invisible, they become totally imperceptable, and with no Hide action required (or the Hide action being handed out as a free action].

Nobody is saying that (I don't think). They need to make a stealth check, probably as a move action as they slip away. They still need to roll high (if one opponent spots them they can tell the others).

Look at page 194 under unseen attackers and targets.

'Combatants often try to escape their foes notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell or lurking in darkness'

That suggests than any one of these options qualifies. It doesn't say they cast invisibility and then also hide.

This is all open to interpretation. I get what you are saying. I disagree with that way of playing it, partially because no previous edition has played it that way and I have never had a problem with it. It doesn't turn the wizard into some super undetectable opponent - its usually used as an escape option. I'm not trying to convince you to play it my way. What I am trying to do is suggest to the other posters that there is an alternative that plays very much like older editions that is fully supported by the rules as well.

 

[Helldritch]

Nobody is saying that (I don't think). They need to make a stealth check, probably as a move action as they slip away. They still need to roll high (if one opponent spots them they can tell the others).

Look at page 194 under unseen attackers and targets.

'Combatants often try to escape their foes notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell or lurking in darkness'

That suggests than any one of these options qualifies. It doesn't say they cast invisibility and then also hide.

Fully agree on that part.

This is all open to interpretation. I get what you are saying. I disagree with that way of playing it, partially because no previous edition has played it that way and I have never had a problem with it. It doesn't turn the wizard into some super undetectable opponent - its usually used as an escape option. I'm not trying to convince you to play it my way. What I am trying to do is suggest to the other posters that there is an alternative that plays very much like older editions that is fully supported by the rules as well.

Fully agree on this too.

Yes what has been said before is true too. But it just don't feel right for an old timer like me. The old way to do invisibility does not make the mage or arcane trickster an all powerfull unbeatable opponent. It is most of the time a desperate attempt to get away without getting killed.

Yes again invisibility (especially improved invisibility) can be used offensively, then again it does not prevent someone to detect you with a good check. But you have to make that check. It is not an auto spot on (at least for myself and many others). Sometimes that check will be easy (alone in a room) other times it will be hard (combat around) other times it could be near impossible (in a market full of people). But it can be done. And if it was so easy to spot the location of an invisible opponent, why on earth would mages have ever invented Dectect Invisibility spells and True seeing?