D&D 5E Volo's Guide to Monsters: General Discussion.

[Parmandur]

Elven Gods, Orcs Gods, Dwarf Gods, ect... I think.

Yup, Elementals too.

 

[GreenTengu]

It's funny that you keep saying Warlock is a viable option for them when it uses Charisma as its casting stat. Only Wizard uses Intelligence.


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It is the only class I have ever seen everyone say HAS to level dip to Fighter for at least one level. But, yes, I was misinformed in thinking it used Intelligence for spell-casting. I thought something other than Wizard had to-- but, nope. Turns out Wizard is the odd man out, literally the only class to in which it pays to have an Intelligence above 6.

This is, like, just your opinion man.---the dude

Seriously though, it seems like all of your complaints are dependent on a certain playstyle. One that isn't shared by a lot of other gamers. For example, we have INT skill checks all the time in our games, and it's not inconsequential. Also, you seem to have an extremely narrow view of what's good and what sucks, which appears to me at least from your post that it's a very tight window on the DPR graph. Which again, is not how most gamers play because most gamers don't play the game solely a combat simulation, but play with a lot of other factors (the other two pillars for instance). Hobgoblins are the tacticians of the goblinoid races. It makes perfect sense why they would get an INT stat.

So I'm sorry you don't like it, but you need to be aware that WoTC doesn't design a game for extremely niche gamers like yourself, but for the general gamer.

Would you care to elaborate on any instance in which your group actually used the Intelligence attribute for well... literally anything...
That wasn't inconsequential... oh, and wasn't a situation in which it wasn't perfectly fine if only one party member made the check and everyone had the chance...

No, of course not. Just insults. Empty claims because you don't care for the truth of a statement.

Yes, DPR is part of the game-- hint, your character doesn't survive long nor does the party if you decide to ignore it. Ignoring it IS the niche-- YOU are the niche, not I.
But looking past simply DPR, Skills are things your character can actually DO. Most attributes help you be more successful when you attempt to do things. Except Constitution is the odd stat out in that it doesn't help you do anything-- it is mostly just a static hit point per level which is too small of a difference unless you play a class with a very small hit die to matter given the large amounts of damage both characters and monsters put out. An extra point of AC which grants you an additional 5% chance that 50+ dmg point attacks miss matters a lot more than 10 extra hit points.

Cantrips are options, it increases the amount of things your character can do. Making a roll you missed by 1-3 points only under the circumstances that you are surrounded by friends... that's not much of an option. It doesn't help you do anything and only very marginally helps you succeed.

A +1 to all your most important rolls all the time is going to matter a lot more than even a +5 to a roll you failed once or twice a day. Unless the party takes frequent short rests, it just isn't going to come into play often enough to be of benefit.

And, again, getting to choose 2 martial weapons is meaningless because over 2/3rds of the classes already come with the ability to use all weapons that they would be remotely effective using.

No, no, no... oh, let me guess. You wanted your Rogue to forgo sneak attack so that he could use a halberd just for and giggles... and yet accuse ME of being the niche audience.

It is very simple. The higher chance a character has of succeeding on each roll during the course of the game directly equates to just how viable the character is for play. An unviable character will not only leave you feeling you are contributing nothing by your presence, but will actually reduce the chance of success at everyone else at the table. Sure-- you can forgo dungeon crawling and battles all together and ignore skill rolls and just you know... crumple up the first page of your character sheet where all the numbers are located and just free form the whole thing. Don't even need a PHB or MM for that! By all means, you are welcome to do that.

But THAT is the niche play style. Looking at the actual effectiveness of a character in and out of combat and formulating their general chances of successfully passing the challenges necessary to complete the adventure-- that is the mainstream style of play.

And what has been given to the hobgoblin here compared to virtually all other races (there ARE admittedly a few that might be worse) results in a situation where regardless of what class you match it up to, you probably would have been better off going with any other race.

If you disagree, go ahead and explain to me how you could use what has been given here to create a hobgoblin character of any class that has as many options available and would be as successful at passing the challenges presented in the typical adventure as a High Elf or Mountain Dwarf PC would be.

As for your argument of Hobgoblins being the most tactical of the goblinoids? While that may be true, it is far more true that they are known for being far less book-smart, informed and technology-savvy than nearly all other races. Dexterity, Charisma and even Wisdom are all far more justifiable than claiming the average Hobgoblin is the intellectual equivalent of a high elf.

And, honestly... if they had just gotten maybe a skill proficiency of any kind. Athletics, Stealth, Intimidation... SOMETHING, I don't even care what it is... I think it would be a lot closer to being well-balanced. Orcs, Goblins and Bugbears all got one after all and their racial abilities are a hell of a lot better than simply passing one narrowly missed roll once per short rest.

If my username didn't clue you in-- I am going to feel compelled to use whatever trash I was handed for racial stats regardless. But I would for once like to feel I am not being forced to go effectively between half a level to an entire damn level behind the rest of the party as was true in 2nd edition and 3rd edition.

I was also thinking of adding the fact that Investigation is vastly different from perception.

And many of my current players would take offense at the idea Intelligence is unimportant, a low intelligence has been killing one of my players

It is well known that regardless of your personal perception of how they are different, even in the printed modules, and much more so at your average game, any time Investigation could be used, the DMs call for Perception checks instead-- or at least allow Perception to substitute in. Moreover, Perception allows you to identify immediate risks which Investigation does not-- it is a flat out worse and more limited skill.

Every time I have seen any skill from the Intelligence pool called for in a game, it has always been the case that it is fine if only a single PC passes the test as that one PC can then relate the information along to everyone else in the party. As opposed to failing a Dexterity test in which you actually lose hit points or a Perception test in which you take an entire round of damage before you can even act or a Strength check which might deny you an entire round of action as you are forced to simply take damage...

Even when used as a save, the cost of failing Intelligence checks tends to be far less costly than nearly any other attribute. So I would like to know how any individual in a group could possibly be suffering from a low Intelligence Attribute and wouldn't be suffering a whole lot more if any other attribute were the deficiency.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Would you care to elaborate on any instance in which your group actually used the Intelligence attribute for well... literally anything...
That wasn't inconsequential... oh, and wasn't a situation in which it wasn't perfectly fine if only one party member made the check and everyone had the chance...

Mostly history or investigation checks. Or any time the PCs have a chance of recollecting anything. Most cases, no, not any other party member could make the same check because most checks are conditional. I.e., Only the player with the X background would have a chance of recalling such information.

No, of course not. Just insults. Empty claims because you don't care for the truth of a statement.

I didn't insult you. And now you're going all conspiracy truther on me? Do you want to know what is truth? Here is some truth for you:

Yes, DPR is part of the game-- hint, your character doesn't survive long nor does the party if you decide to ignore it. Ignoring it IS the niche-- YOU are the niche, not I..

Objectively wrong. We've had this discussion so many times before. We've even had lots of polls. And every time, upwards of 90% of people polled do not consider themselves optimizers or power gamers. So unless you have a different definition of "niche" than the rest of us use, I hate to break it to you, but you are the exception. Especially when you make claims implying that a single attribute point difference would make one character "way way worse."

I'm not going to address the rest of what you said because honestly I stopped here, although I'm betting you probably resorted to a logical fallacy or two later on. There would be no point. If one thing this election has shown me, it's when one person starts throwing out wild claims without any real evidence, ignores the evidence in front of them, and still insists they know the "real truth"? There is absolutely no point in trying to have discourse.

 

[Parmandur]

This is, like, just your opinion man.---the dude

Seriously though, it seems like all of your complaints are dependent on a certain playstyle. One that isn't shared by a lot of other gamers. For example, we have INT skill checks all the time in our games, and it's not inconsequential. Also, you seem to have an extremely narrow view of what's good and what sucks, which appears to me at least from your post that it's a very tight window on the DPR graph. Which again, is not how most gamers play because most gamers don't play the game solely a combat simulation, but play with a lot of other factors (the other two pillars for instance). Hobgoblins are the tacticians of the goblinoid races. It makes perfect sense why they would get an INT stat.

So I'm sorry you don't like it, but you need to be aware that WoTC doesn't design a game for extremely niche gamers like yourself, but for the general gamer.

You are right about those complaints as presented; though I do think +1 Charisma instead of Int seems more...Hobgoblinish. Solid race, though.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

[MENTION=6777454]TheHobgoblin[/MENTION], what's wrong with making Hobgoblin wizards? Wizards tend to boost Int/Dex/Con, and you're getting bonuses to two of the three. You can pick up Net proficiency so you have some way besides spamming cantrips to spend your off-rounds, and maybe heavy crossbow proficiency too to give you something to do at long range (cantrips rarely exceed 120' range). Saving face is a quasi-substitute for Resilient(everything) and can help you keep concentration and/or avoid critical save failures like a surprise Banshee wail. You aren't going to intentionally risk those saves more than 1/short rest anyway.

It's not terrific, but it's not terrible either, and unlike a variant human at least you get darkvision. Hobgoblin wizards appear to be 100% reasonable.

Amusingly, Hobgoblins would make pretty decent Bladesingers if such a thing were possible, maybe better than High Elves. (The High Elf cantrips are a waste for a wizard.) Con instead of Dex is a significant change and would incline Hobgoblin bladesingers more toward spell-chucking than melee, but then that is already one of the top recommended usages of Bladesingers already.

Hobgoblin Fighter/Abjurors might also reasonably become a thing, even though that makes the martial weapon proficiency a waste.

Obviously, Hobgoblin NPCs will benefit more from Saving Face than many PCs will--but don't underestimate the number of allies in a typical party! Once you finish up adding up all the PCs and hirelings/other NPCs, the various familiars, and the Paladin's intelligent steed, that +5 may turn out to be the most common bonus.

I wonder if Saving Face is usable for initiative. Can initiative checks ever be said to "fail"?

 

[MonsterEnvy]

You are right about those complaints as presented; though I do think +1 Charisma instead of Int seems more...Hobgoblinish. Solid race, though.

Hobgoblins in 5e tend to have below average charisma unless they are a leader. Gennerally because charisma is also force of personality and Hobgoblins tend to go into a routine and do what their bosses tell them to with little variation.

Most of the race are grunts that simply obey orders and very little else. So I don't think Charisma works for them.

 

[Azzy]

Elven Gods, Orcs Gods, Dwarf Gods, ect... I think.

To be fair, those were all presented as setting-independent by Roger E. Moore in Dragon magazine. They got the official thumbs-up from Gygax and became assumed part of the Greyhawk setting. Apparently, Ed Greenwood & Jeff Grubb also dug them, and incorporated them into the Forgotten Realms, too. Since then, they've been presented as both setting-neutral as well as part of those two settings.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Not a table, per se, but only stat adjustments and abilities with no fluff. Those are the goblinoids talked about earlier in this thread. The rest get full write ups like in the PHB

This is misleading. The monstrous races that don't get fluff in chapter 2 are the Goblinoids, Orc, Kobold and Yuan-Ti Pureblood. While they don't get fluff in chapter 2. All of them get massive sections in chapter 1 that eclipses any phb race.

That is a bit disappointing. The impression that was given was that there was a table with a good number of other suitable monsters. Would have been nice, but it's not a deal breaker. The book looks awesome.

Yet again though, it's an example of why I shouldn't trust any sorts of reviews or spoilers from casual D&D players, like the impression I got about the source for those statements about the table. Still though, seems really hard to miscommunicate something that simple.

This is such absolute crap. How is this even remotely supposed to keep up with anyone else in virtually any class?

That does seem underwhelming, and Int is a weird choice. I might just give them 1d6 martial advantage, and let them take a special feat that would let it scale a bit with HD, and throw in some other ability (maybe a ribbon).

 

[Parmandur]

To be fair, those were all presented as setting-independent by Roger E. Moore in Dragon magazine. They got the official thumbs-up from Gygax and became assumed part of the Greyhawk setting. Apparently, Ed Greenwood & Jeff Grubb also dug them, and incorporated them into the Forgotten Realms, too. Since then, they've been presented as both setting-neutral as well as part of those two settings.

Exactly, though, that's the free-wheeling multiverse that is animating 5E.

 

[Elderbrain]

Anybody with the book want to tell me what the Blackguard, Champion, Darkling and Darkling Elder, Deep Scion, and Sea Spawn are? I'm especially interested in knowing if the Blackguard and Champion are NPC stats for an anti-Paladin and Paladin, respectively...