D&D 5E Totally underwhelmed by 5e bladesinger, am I missing something?

[Mort]

I suspect this is futile, and it has very little to to do with the actual thread, but I'll see if I can be clearer:

In the rules it does not say it takes an action, it simply says, and invisible can hide at anytime.

The rules do not say that. They say "you cannot hide from a creature that can see you... An invisible creature can't be seen so it can always try to hide." You try to hide by taking the hide action, you can take the hide action because invisibility allows you to, it does not change the hide action itself.

if it required an action, it would say, "use your action to____, or take a bonus action to _____" like it does for so many other things. They don't make rules vague by accident, they allow things to be interpreted by what the DM thinks should be right, because it takes a hell of a lot less effort for and an invisible creature to be quiet, than a person standing out in the open going somewhere to hide.

It is easier and takes less effort! If you were not invisible you would not be able to hide unless you had some other circumstances (cover etc.). Invisibility allows you to try to hide it does not make it otherwise free!

I've been playing RPGs for over 20 years with many different systems, I can tell you, they keep whatever rules as vague as possible because they don't want things to become limiting.

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I've been gaming for 30 years, I have seen many vague rules and rules sets - this is not the least bit vague!

[Edit: the above may come off a bit harsh and is not intended as such. I'll amend to IMO this is not vague, just a, perhaps unfortunate, attempt at natural language.]

 

[Flamestrike]

In the rules it does not say it takes an action, it simply says, and invisible can hide at anytime. If it required an action, it would say, "use your action to____, or take a bonus action to _____" like it does for so many other things. They don't make rules vague by accident, they allow things to be interpreted by what the DM thinks should be right, because it takes a hell of a lot less effort for and an invisible creature to be quiet, than a person standing out in the open going somewhere to hide.

I've been playing RPGs for over 20 years with many different systems, I can tell you, they keep whatever rules as vague as possible because they don't want things to become limiting.

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Mort says it all above me mate.

You (normally) can't use the Hide action unless you a) have total cover or heavy obscurement and b) Noone saw you go into your hiding spot.

Invisibility let's you take the Hide action whenever you want. It removes these restrictions, but it doesn't affect the action type (action or bonus action) required.

I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

 

[Flamestrike]

Remember Neogod there is an action economy at work here.

It's an action (or bonus action in a few cases) to Hide (and you need to be unseen to attempt it) and it's also an action to Search (actively use perception).

 

[zaratan]

In the rules it does not say it takes an action, it simply says, and invisible can hide at anytime. If it required an action, it would say, "use your action to____, or take a bonus action to _____" like it does for so many other things. They don't make rules vague by accident, they allow things to be interpreted by what the DM thinks should be right, because it takes a hell of a lot less effort for and an invisible creature to be quiet, than a person standing out in the open going somewhere to hide.

I've been playing RPGs for over 20 years with many different systems, I can tell you, they keep whatever rules as vague as possible because they don't want things to become limiting.

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Hide action say that required an action.

Again, invisibility is the same "unseen" condition than total cover, why you think that one need an action and the other is free?

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[FormerlyHemlock]

The book doesn't say anything invisible creature has to take an action to hide, it just says it can hide anytime, sounds like a free action to me.

Depends on the DM of course, but yes--"taking the Hide action" is not the only way to become hidden. That's why objects can be hidden.

Other possibilities include "someone else tries to hide you" and improvised actions, some of which may include the use of spells. Is it reasonable to try to hide yourself with a Minor Illusion spell or with Major Image? Possibly--ask your DM.

 

[neogod22]

Well you guys can rule it whatever you want. I'm not playing at your tables. I feel it's unnecessary to try and limit players with unnecessary dice rolling, or force them to take unnecessary actions, it takes away from creative thinking and fun at times. And in my games, and invisible creature is always going to be hidden, until there's a way for it to be found.

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[Helldritch]

Depends on the DM of course, but yes--"taking the Hide action" is not the only way to become hidden. That's why objects can be hidden.

If you go strickly by the rules you are wrong. That is why you can enter in a room and say:"Hey! An invisible magical longsword is in that room. How do I know? It did not take the hide action so it is not hidden and I perfectly know where it is. The PHB says so..."

Now sarcasm off. Of course the hidden rule is relatively simple to understand and I believe that we all do but it does not make logical sense. Strict interpretation of the rule(s) gives them a valid point. Now the hard part is going a step further from the rule and use logic without refering to the rules. Go outside and asks any gamer of any system if an invisible creature is easily detected and all of them, will say no. 5ed rule says the opposite. Not hidden = position known for sure. And that can lead to some ridiculously situation with some games.

If I go straight by the rules, an opponent using improved invisibility in a silenced zone will be steadily attacked (with disadvantage) by his ennemy simply because he did not use the hide action. In any other system if I were the enemy of the invisible wizard, I would be toast but in 5ed, by strict use of the rule, I'll just have disadvantage to hit. Poor mage will be in for a nasty surprise and will start to use shield if I have a meager +6 to hit...

When a rule is badly written, you have to use your logic. Get out the :" Refer to the rule" and use your logic. Not everything that is and can be hidden must take an action to do so whatever the rule says. Hemlock is perfectly right in his statement even if the rule says otherwise.

Other possibilities include "someone else tries to hide you" and improvised actions, some of which may include the use of spells. Is it reasonable to try to hide yourself with a Minor Illusion spell or with Major Image? Possibly--ask your DM.

Funny that you bring this up. I ruled that it was possible. It is really helpful for rogues that a few illusion can help them get into a nice position.

 

[Helldritch]

[MENTION=6801220]shintashi[/MENTION]

Yep, that combination can work out great. It all depends on the style of play the person wants to have with his character. Your solution will be relatively MAD dependant and wizard spells will be limited to defensive ones as intel will be kept relatively low.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Now sarcasm off. Of course the hidden rule is relatively simple to understand and I believe that we all do but it does not make logical sense. Strict interpretation of the rule(s) gives them a valid point. Now the hard part is going a step further from the rule and use logic without refering to the rules. Go outside and asks any gamer of any system if an invisible creature is easily detected and all of them, will say no. 5ed rule says the opposite. Not hidden = position known for sure. And that can lead to some ridiculously situation with some games.

If I go straight by the rules, an opponent using improved invisibility in a silenced zone will be steadily attacked (with disadvantage) by his ennemy simply because he did not use the hide action. In any other system if I were the enemy of the invisible wizard, I would be toast but in 5ed, by strict use of the rule, I'll just have disadvantage to hit. Poor mage will be in for a nasty surprise and will start to use shield if I have a meager +6 to hit...

I know we agree on the substance of the ruling, but the thing is--I don't agree that 5E rules even require this in the first place. Nowhere in the PHB does it ever define "hidden" as "has successfully taken the Hide action." A DM is completely within his rights to just set a DC to spot something instead of basing it on some Dexterity (Stealth) check. In fact there are monsters (Hulking Crab) which are written this way. In the case of the Hulking Crab, it is camouflaged instead of hidden; an mud-smeared kobold might be hidden instead though. Furthermore, the PHB explicitly calls out that improvised actions are 100% okay, and can have various effects. "I'm going to try to smear mud on everyone to disguise us from the Predator's vision; then I'll look around and smear more mud on anyone I can still see, and repeat until they are perfectly hidden" isn't something you can do in six seconds during combat, and it affects more than one person, so it clearly isn't the Hide action, and yet it can still hide you if your DM says so, according to the PHB.

The Hide action is a generic "do something to quickly hide in shadows/move silently" affordance that handwaves the question of "what exactly are you doing to become hidden?". It's designed to make things simple and quick during combat. It's not the only way to become unseen, unheard, or unnoticed, i.e. "hidden".

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Well you guys can rule it whatever you want. I'm not playing at your tables. I feel it's unnecessary to try and limit players with unnecessary dice rolling, or force them to take unnecessary actions, it takes away from creative thinking and fun at times. And in my games, and invisible creature is always going to be hidden, until there's a way for it to be found.

That's great! 5E is all about DM empowerment and playing the game that makes sense to you and your players. It's why there are so many optional rules variants in the DMG.

Good gaming!