D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Plaguescarred]

Does not mean : You can't 'take the Hide action' from a creature that can see you clearly. It means what it means in the real world, common sense, plain English meaning of 'If you were actually here in front of me in this room IRL and I watch you crawl into a box, you cant hide there. You are not hidden. I know where you are cause I saw you go there. You cant hide from me if I watch you go into hiding.'.

'Hide' in that sentence means 'go into hiding' as you and I understand that in the real world if you and I were sitting in a room watching each other an one of us decide to hide from the other.

You don't hide because you go out of view, you hide after you do and wether someone knows where you are doesn't prevent you from hiding, only being clearly seen does. In fact you usually know the last location of a hidden creature so it's always best to move after you hide if you can.

So to come back to your exemple, you can try to hide after going into a box since you can't be seen clearly while in there. Creatures will still not be able to see you being heavily obscured by the box even though they know where you are and thus guessing your location will be easily to do. In other words, while you can try to hide there, it's not much more effective than simply taking cover under it without hiding.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

OK, lets back off slightly and consider a different question.

In game mechanics, what is the difference between being hidden and being unseen?

 

[ThePolarBear]

absurd stripping of object permanence via some kind of 'hide action'

Absurd because it's something YOU are applying and no one else is. If you go behind a pillar and suddendly go quiet with a crowd watching THE CROWD STILL KNOWS WHERE YOU WENT. THIS DOES NOT PREVENT ANYONE FROM HIDING. THERE'S NO PERMANENCE BEING STRIPPED.

HIDING DOES NOT MINDWIPE

You cant hide from me if I watch you go into hiding.

'Hide' in that sentence means 'go into hiding' as you and I understand that in the real world if you and I were sitting in a room watching each other an one of us decide to hide from the other.

Or, you know, apply the rule you quoted and see that hide means hide. And recognise that "go into hiding" is something YOU are adding. That, i'll repeat, was added and later REMOVED from the rules. The reason? Speculation.

I'm not trying to hide to to become invisible, to get the possibility to escape. Or prehaps i am, we only know that there's a pillar. I'm trying to hide to prevent someone else from knowing what i'm doing. And that is as valid as other reasons to hide. And that IS possible since the rule IS NOT WHAT YOU SAY IT IS.

Your decision is yours. You as a DM are adjudicating that it's not possible to do so in that situation. And you can do that expecially because "The DM decides when the circumstances are appropriate for hiding". That is fine. The RULE has to be as permissive as possible to allow the master to adjudicate. That is why the rule was changed from "see" to "see clearly", as simply "see" includes everything. Even shadows in darkness.

I mean you can still go into your box, but you can't take the Hide action once you're in there because I saw you go into the box. You can move into a box and close the lid, but you cant hide in the box, because I saw you clearly go into your hiding spot.

How are you not understanding this? There are (broadly) two possible interpretations of that passage above. Your gamist interpretation (which is absurd, and even you cant explain any of it) and my plain English interpretation (which reflects common sense and is empirically testable).

Except that if i go into the box i CAN hide as long as the DM allows me to! I can be unseen and unheard. My location is known, SO WHAT?

The point of hiding is being unseen and unheard. It can be used to go around being unseen and unheard or just for doing something before being discovered. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF SOMEONE KNOWS WHERE I WAS. WHAT MATTERS IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT I'M DOING NEXT.

 

[fjw70]

OK, lets back off slightly and consider a different question.

In game mechanics, what is the difference between being hidden and being unseen?

Unseen means that people know which space you occupy but have disadvantage when attacking you and you have advantage when attacking them.

Hidden means that that you cannot be perceived by those you are hidden from. They can guess where you are and if they guess right you still have the benefits of being unseen.

 

[Hriston]

So.. it doesn't make any sense? Thats what I have been saying all along!

Well, my interpretation happens to agree with yours.

People are interpreting the sentence in the PHB 'You cant hide while being observed' as a rule of 'You can not [take the hide action] unless you first break LOS'.

That's because the rule is the DM determines when the appropriate circumstances for hiding exist, and the number one circumstance given is that someone can not see you clearly. That means it's the DM's job to determine whether or not someone can see you clearly. The implied reasoning behind this, however, is that if someone can see you clearly then they know your location. I think that's what folks are missing.

Seen clearly is not the only circumstance in which hiding is inappropriate! You also need to stay quiet. That means you can't yell out, "Hey, I'm over here!", from behind your pillar and then take the Hide action. The circumstance of you making noise is not appropriate for hiding, because it gives away your location.

If the floor is dusty, and you make tracks as you move behind the pillar, you need to try to cover your tracks, because a trail of footprints leading to your location is a circumstance that is inappropriate for hiding. That's because it tells everyone where you are.

So that's at least three circumstances in which hiding is inappropriate, but those are just examples. What they all have in common is that under such circumstances your location is known. That's what makes them inappropriate. The DM is charged with determining whether other circumstances are appropriate or not.

That's not what that sentence is saying. Its not rules jargon. Its just saying that if someone is watching you going into hiding (moving behind a pillar or tree in order to attempt to hide from you) they cant hide from you in that spot because you saw them go there.

People are interpreting a common sense plain english phrase as some kind of rules jargon and getting absurd results as a consequence.

I agree. But the issue here seems to be that the common English definition of hide is imprecise. It's clear to me (and it seems you would agree) from the context given by the rules, that when you hide, you are hiding your location in the same way you would hide your emotions, by keeping your location secret and unknown. If it is already known, that is an inappropriate circumstance.

 

[fjw70]

Breaking line of sight is exactly what is needed for hiding. Let's say there is an area of darkness with 4 connected spaces. You see me miove into one of these spaces. Since I cannot be seen I successful take the hide action. Now at this point you do not know which space I am in. I could still be in the space you saw me move into or I could be in any of the other 3 spaces (or could have leafy that area by teleporting or by a secret door). You have to guess which space I am in. Even if you guess right you get disadvantage on the attack roll to try and hit me.

 

[Uller]

Has anyone here ever seen a magic trick where the magician hides in a box and then appears somewhere else on stage? Geez people...this is what it means to be so skilled at something that people can do seemingly impossible things.

It always blows my mind that we are talking about a game where people can be hit by tree sized clubs wielded by giants and live but a creature that is good at being subtle and quiet can't hide in the chaos of melee combat.

 

[ClearlyTough69]

Aside from the exact definition of 'hiding', the definition of 'hidden' is another problem. The most helpful bit of RAW is...

If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

Are the words 'unseen and unheard' a definition or merely an example, and if they are a definition, is it an exhaustive definition?

And if you are 'hidden', must your location be unknown to the creatures you are hiding from, and is that actually part of the game definition of hidden? And what is a location anyway? A general area or a precise position - a five foot square even!? And if your location is unknown, does that make you hidden?

And one last thing! Is there a difference, especially a mechanical difference, between detecting the presence of a hidden creature and detecting its location?

Answers in a new thread please!

 

[Flamestrike]

You don't hide because you go out of view, you hide after you do

No you dont 'hide after going out of view'. There is no break between you going into cover and hiding.

Again, if you and I were in a room and I was watching you sneakily crawl into a box, and close the lid very quietly, I saw you hide. And you cant hide from someone who is watching you.

The act of going out of view is (in many cases) part of the process of you hiding.

Read the passage of text 'You cant hide from someone who is watching you' in plain english [i.e. 'hiding' in this case, is not 'the hide action'].

I agree. But the issue here seems to be that the common English definition of hide is imprecise. It's clear to me (and it seems you would agree) from the context given by the rules, that when you hide, you are hiding your location in the same way you would hide your emotions, by keeping your location secret and unknown. If it is already known, that is an inappropriate circumstance.

Exactly. You cant hide if Im watching you go into hiding, because I know where you are. No amount of 'taking the hide action' behind your total cover or in your box helps you. In fact, any such attempt automatically fails.

Because you cant hide from someone that is watching you.

Breaking line of sight is exactly what is needed for hiding.

No, its not. The rules dont say that. They say you cant even attempt the hide action, if I saw you crawl into your hiding spot (If I watch you go into hiding).

Let's say there is an area of darkness with 4 connected spaces. You see me miove into one of these spaces. Since I cannot be seen I successful take the hide action.

You cant take the hide action, because I saw you go into hiding. I know you're in that 10' patch of darkness. No amount of you jumping up and down 'taking the hide action' is going to change that.

Has anyone here ever seen a magic trick where the magician hides in a box and then appears somewhere else on stage? Geez people...this is what it means to be so skilled at something that people can do seemingly impossible things.

For sure. If you crawl into a box with a secret trapdoor, you most certainly can hide.

In this case, while I saw you go into the box (you can hide from me there) I didnt see you use your secret trapdoor and move elsewhere, hiding there. I didnt see you go into hiding. You can hide.

I'm a little confused by your arguments now. Are you saying that once someone breaks line of sight you are still watching them?

Yes. You are watching them break line of sight.

Not that it matters because the rules dont say 'you can take the hide action whenever you break line of sight'. They say you cant hide from a creature that is watching you. Hide (in this context) is the plain english usage of the word, and not the hide action.

If I watch you open a box, crawl in, and close the lid (break LOS), you cant hide from me inside the box. I saw you go into hiding, and you cant hide from someone who was watching you. Your stealth check fails (DC: infinity).

Absurd because it's something YOU are applying and no one else is. If you go behind a pillar and suddendly go quiet with a crowd watching THE CROWD STILL KNOWS WHERE YOU WENT.

Exactly. This is why you cant hide. The crowd knows you're there. No amount of jumping up and down behind that pillar will let you take the Hide action. You cant hide.

I mean you can be as quiet as a mouse if you want, but it doesnt change . You arent hidden, and your Stealth check to Hide fails.

Or, you know, apply the rule you quoted and see that hide means hide. And recognise that "go into hiding" is something YOU are adding.

I'm not adding anything. You are. You're adding a rule to the Hide action that requires a person 'break LOS before attempting the Hide action'. In fact, you're adding a rule to the Hide action that allows anyone to attempt the Hide action by simply breaking LOS.

There is no such rule. There is just a plain english statement of common sense that says: 'You cant hide from someone who watches you going into hiding; your position is known. You are not hidden'

 

[Springheel]

For sure. If you crawl into a box with a secret trapdoor, you most certainly can hide.

In this case, while I saw you go into the box (you can hide from me there) I didnt see you use your secret trapdoor and move elsewhere, hiding there. I didnt see you go into hiding. You can hide.

What is the difference, in that example, between someone who moves through the secret trapdoor and goes elsewhere and then sits there using his action to hide, and someone who moves through the secret trapdoor and goes elsewhere and sits there without using his action to hide? In both cases, the observer in the room has no idea where they are.
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