D&D 5E last encounter was totally one-sided

[CapnZapp]

that was kinda my thought as well. I mean, they had a DIVINER in their group. His/her entire JOB was to find out as much info about the party as possible lol. Also, level 14 PCs typically have a reputation at that point, so any group planning on taking them on should have done their homework. Unless I'm missing something and this was a random spur of the moment combat or something. And even then, just because a fighter type excels at fighting doesn't mean they would skip their massive AOE and basically do nothing for an entire round moving. A PC wouldn't do that, would they?

I mean, ultimately if that's how he wanted to run that encounter, that's all that's important; not my opinion at any rate. but a few things kinda stood out to me. I would definitely caution against using the OP's example as a typical high level encounter.

The only thing you're missing is that used the diviner statblock for my NPC. He certainly didn't know he was a diviner. I mean, his name was Master Thalder. Not Master Diviner.

You're right about this not being a typical high level encounter. I sure hope it isn't

 

[CapnZapp]

What I'm curious about now is if anyone of you recognize the two sources I used for my little encounter?

I mean, what adventure site features a Death Knight maintaining the illusion of normality? And what adventure site features a tavern keep named Delgara, and a girl chosen by Mystra?

 

[Flamestrike]

that was kinda my thought as well. I mean, they had a DIVINER in their group. His/her entire JOB was to find out as much info about the party as possible lol.

Archdruid: (glancing angrily at the Diviner as the Monk runs up to him screaming some ki shout) 'You had ONE job!'

If only this party of highly experienced spell-casters with access to 8th+ level magic had the ability to scout out the party first, or the intelligence or wisdom to think this was a good idea, or possessed at least one individual with the kind of patience, foresight and tactical nous that only an immortal being who has fought in countless wars and combat....

Oh... wait.

I mean, ultimately if that's how he wanted to run that encounter, that's all that's important; not my opinion at any rate. but a few things kinda stood out to me. I would definitely caution against using the OP's example as a typical high level encounter.

The OP wasnt using the example for any other reason other than to push his agenda that 5E's encounter and CR system is broken.

Like I said earlier, all he's done is expose an entirely different problem.

 

[Krachek]

That might be true.

But as luck would have it, I can do two things

Fixing SS for my home game does not preclude me from also making an effort spreading the word. If I'm in luck, word eventually reaches the designers. Stranger things have happened in this interconnected world, Krachek

I am aware of your crusade and I wish you luck.
I wonder why these feats are still not nerfed at your table.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Archdruid: (glancing angrily at the Diviner as the Monk runs up to him screaming some ki shout) 'You had ONE job!'

If only this party of highly experienced spell-casters with access to 8th+ level magic had the ability to scout out the party first, or the intelligence or wisdom to think this was a good idea, or possessed at least one individual with the kind of patience, foresight and tactical nous that only an immortal being who has fought in countless wars and combat....

Oh... wait.



The OP wasnt using the example for any other reason other than to push his agenda that 5E's encounter and CR system is broken.

Like I said earlier, all he's done is expose an entirely different problem.

I'm not going to ascribe motivations to the OP, or comment on how he played as being "right" or "wrong." But for me, let's look at the diviner NPC. At his disposal are spells like detect thoughts, locate object, clairvoyance, arcane eye, rary's telepathic bond, scrying, mass suggestion, teleport, and maze. AND an INT of 18, which is probably the most valuable of all. These are all excellent abilities to set them up for success against a party of 14th level PCs. They are incredibly valuable in finding out everything they need to know about the party, and to set the conflict up in an area to the advantage of the NPCs. Heck, the big baddies don't even need to reveal themselves. Cast Mass Suggestion on a bunch of townsfolk to harass and distract the party while you set up for a nova attack. And that's just the diviner all by himself, and not counting the abilities of the archdruid or others.

Not to the OP specificially, but one thing I notice is a lot of people look at a stat block and only think in terms of a combat encounter itself, and don't think about how the abilities of NPCs can be useful out of combat.

 

[robus]

The OP wasnt using the example for any other reason other than to push his agenda that 5E's encounter and CR system is broken.


Like I said earlier, all he's done is expose an entirely different problem.

While I initially thought this was going to be presented as an example of how hard it is to create decent encounters in 5e CapnZapp has actually said this was a report on how awesome it was:

I have already acknowledged this could have become way harder for the party. I just want to share in the awesomeness of it all

CapnZapp liked something, he really liked something!

 

[Ancalagon]

While I initially thought this was going to be presented as an example of how hard it is to create decent encounters in 5e CapnZapp has actually said this was a report on how awesome it was:




CapnZapp liked something, he really liked something!

I roll to disbelief!!

 

[Raunalyn]

I think the take home for this kind of thing is sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you.

Funnily enough, in our current Dragonlance game, we just had two pretty big encounters, back to back. A very big dragon backed up with a potion of invulnerability (don't ask) followed by an encounter with three undead baddies, several invisible stalkers and a vampire.

The big nasty dragon went down like a chump. We obliterated it, even with its defensive bonuses. This thing got curb stomped, even if it was way above us in level.

The next encounter, with lots of smaller stuff is handing us our asses. We haven't finished the encounter yet, but, it's turned into a MUCH more difficult encounter.

So, it all just goes down to swinginess a lot of times. I mean, in our second encounter, my defensive fighter with a magic buffed AC, still got tagged 5 times out of 6. Granted most of those attacks were at advantage, but, sheesh, they needed an 18 or better to hit my character and still did it 5 out of 6 times. Yikes.

5e can be very swingy at times.

You mean, one of the two Pots of Invulnerability that he swindled out of you party?

I mean, you just handed them to him...it was only appropriate that he used it against you. After all, you guys had lots of stuff that looked pretty cool and he wanted to have it. And, since he outsmarted you once, he figured he could easily defeat you. If it wasn't for the Ranger's godlike perception, the encounter could have gone much, much worse.

I really enjoyed the RP in that encounter, BTW...I tried to play the dragon as oily and untrustworthy as I possibly could, and you guys *still* fell for it.

Good times!

 

[Tony Vargas]

And yes, this was an ONE ENCOUNTER DAY.

So sue me...

Lawyers will be in touch... ;P

Seriously though, I'm not sure there's a real 'problem' here, it sounds more like an artifact of the mechanics used to deliver on the promise of 'fast combat.' In retrospect, a successful fast combat is going to look one-sided. It might have been tense that first round, but the uncertainty can't last.

 

[cooperjer]

And yes, this was an ONE ENCOUNTER DAY.

So sue me...

I didn't read beyond the first page of the thread, but this is the question I had come to mind after reading the first page of data. What I understood from the first few posts was that the players used a lot of the resources, and some very significant encounter changing resources, during this combat. Thus they made short work of the encounter. By the DMG calculations, a Deadly rated encounter is 22,800 XP for the 14th level characters. However, the four 14th level characters have up to 60,000 XP for an expected adventuring day. The encounter you presented is 74,200 XP. By the standard calculations. What I would have done differently in the calculations is this:

1. Assign a weight of 0.5 to the Deathnight because it most likely would have been a single target by all of the PCs since it's the highest XP and is far above other NPCs in CR rating.
2. Assign a weight of 1.0 to the Archdruid since it is also above the remainder of the NPCs.
3. Assing a weight of 2.0 to the remaining three NPCs as per the recommended DMG guidelines for 3 creatures in an encounter and because they are similar enough in CR value.

The net result of these changes gives a calculated CR XP value of 38,800, which is about 2/3 of a daily XP total and my be about in ling with the resources used by the PCs in this encounter.

In my group, we have a decent amount of experience in character optimization and encounter tactics. I've found that increasing the number of PCs in the calculations by 1 helps with getting the encounter to feel right (i.e. hard feels hard, medium feels medium, etc.). The PCs in the game also have rolled states with a minimum of a +10 sum of bonuses. This drives the calculations up by 1 level as well. The same may apply to your PCs. In my game the PC calculations would have been for five level 15 PCs. This puts the encounter described to be about 43% of their daily resources consumption. I'm willing to bet if the players look at what was used they have used between the 40% and 60% of their characters resources in the encounter.

This leaves room for more encounters during the day. This also may increase the risky feeling of the future encounters.

I'm also in line with you regarding monster design. I don't want to have to think too much about encounter tactics of monsters, so a well built monster makes my life much easier.