D&D 5E Do you care about setting "canon"?

[Hussar]

I'm not arguing that this is why new books shouldn't change canon...It was simply a counterpoint to @pemerton's assumption of the lore being readily available to anyone who preferred it.

EDIT: Now granted this is becoming less of a problem and once they have the Planescape stuff up for PoD I'll be one of the first to hand over my money to restock on all those books I loved (but didn't really care for properly) as a child... but the secondary market on ebay for Planescape was just to ridiculous for me to entertain the notion of buying back my entire collection.

But, now you're even further down the rabbit hole. Planescape material is setting specific and is not part of 5e core. Just a quick perusal of the 5e MM turns up that Salamanders are a slave race to Efreeti and hate Azers. AFAIK, this isn't part of Planescape. Is that part of Planescape lore that Efreeti tried to enslave Azers to build the City of Brass, failed and then enslaved salamanders to help them "unleash a war of destruction across the planes"? (MM 5e p265)? I'll admit my Planescape canon knowledge is extremely limited, but, it's the first I've heard of this. And 5e is replete with this sort of thing.

Which means if you want to use your Planescape material, you'll have to make changes to 5e lore. And, for some bizarre reason which I've never been able to understand, that's perfectly acceptable. But, using your Planescape material in 4e you'd have to make changes, but, that was unacceptable. I'm frankly rather baffled why it's both ways.

The older lore is right there for you to use. Either online in any number of sources, or, now, from the primary sources. You HAVE what you want. Why can't I have what I want too? Why does the lore you like have to be enshrined into the game, but, the lore you don't care for should be excised?

 

[Hussar]

So are you asking why people or any particular RPGer care about things?

My guess is because of the endorphin hit they give you.

So, you agree with my basic point that canon is only important when the person likes it? After all, you don't endorphin hits from things you don't like.

 

[Shasarak]

Here are quick summaries of AD&D 1st ed, 4e and 5e High Elves:

AD&D
* +1 DEX (max 19), -1 CON
* 1600 year life expectancy
* Average height 5' for men, 4'4" for women
* Average weight 100 lb for men, 80 lb for women
* 60' infravision
* Speak Elvish, Gnome, Halfling, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Orcish, Gnoll, and Common
* 90% resistance to sleep and charm spells
* +1 to hit with long and short bows, and long and short swords
* Bonus chance to notice concealed doors and find concealed and secret doors
* Chance to surprise if unarmoured and not with anyone other than elves and halflings

4e
* +2 DEX, +2 INT
* Fey origin, live for over 300 years, and even at the end suffer few of the infirmities of old age
* Average height 5´5˝–6´1˝
* Average weight 130–180 lb.
* See normally in dim light
* Speak Elvish, Common
* Bonus to recovery from charm effects (the Sleep spell is a charm effect)
* 'Trance' rather than sleep (4 hr = 6 hr sleep)
* Longsword proficiency
* Gain a bonus skill, and gain bonuses to Arcana and History checks
* Teleport up to 25' (once used, short rest to recover)

5e
* +2 DEX, +1 INT
* 750 year life expectancy
* Tend to CG
* Height ranges from <5' to > 6' tall, slender build
* See 60' in dim light, see poorly for 60' in darkness
* Speak Common, Elvish, and one additional language
* Bonus to charm saves, immune to sleep magic
* 'Trance' rather than sleep (4 hr = 8 hr sleep)
* Proficient with longsword, shortsword, shortbow, and longbow
* Bonus to Perception checks
* Use one wizard cantrip (at will)​

Neither 4e nor 5e keeps the racial ability to surprise by moving silently. 4e drops the Perception bonus (though it can be regained by taking Perception as a bonus skill), and has a shorter list of "racial" weapons.

The biggest differences are that 4e adds what is (in 5e terms) Misty Step on a short rest recovery, while 5e adds an at-will cantrip. Both are significant departures from AD&D, where elves are not guaranteed to be able to use magic at all. If there is meant to be a harking back to elven F/MUs, I don't think a second level spell on a short rest recovery is wildly different in this respect from a cantrip (which in AD&D terms is a 1st level spell) at will.

There you go, it must be because people did not like the fact that Eladrin could cast a 2nd level spell every 5 minutes compared to a 0 level spell at will. So it turns out to be a Balance issue all this time.

 

[pemerton]

a 0 level spell at will.

5e cantrips are not, in AD&D terms, 0-level spells. Dancing Lights, Light, Message, Shocking Grasp - these are all 1st level AD&D spells. And Minor Illusion is 2nd or 3rd level for MUs (Audible Glamour, Phantasmal Force).

 

[Imaro]

If you've heard of it, you've heard of it from somewhere, or read about it somewhere. You ask around. You look it up online. You make it up. Et.

For instance, if someone has heard that in PS tieflings weren't all the same, but had different ancestries and different infernal traits, then that person already knows enough to implement the change in his/her 4e game!

So I'm not using the actual material...I'm making my own stuff up at this point.

 

[Shasarak]

So, you agree with my basic point that canon is only important when the person likes it? After all, you don't endorphin hits from things you don't like.

No, of course not. What is important has nothing to do with if you like it or not.

 

[Shasarak]

5e cantrips are not, in AD&D terms, 0-level spells. Dancing Lights, Light, Message, Shocking Grasp - these are all 1st level AD&D spells. And Minor Illusion is 2nd or 3rd level for MUs (Audible Glamour, Phantasmal Force).

If we need to compare to ADnD spells then Misty Step must be equivalent to something like a Dimension Door which is a 4th level spell.

That makes it even more unbalanced.

 

[pemerton]

If we need to compare to ADnD spells then Misty Step must be equivalent to something like a Dimension Door which is a 4th level spell.

That makes it even more unbalanced.

Dimension Door remains 4th level in 5e.

Misty Step is 30' (25' for 4e Eladrin) and requires LoS, vs Dimension Door's 500' to a place unseen (in AD&D, it is 30'/level, so starts at 210' and grows from there).

Misty Step in AD&D would be a 2nd level spell - Jump is 1st level and allows 30', and so the main advantage of Misty Step is that it allows passing through transparent barriers that don't otherwise block teleportation, such as windows and grilles. It's clearly weaker than Fly, which is 3rd level.

 

[Imaro]

But, now you're even further down the rabbit hole. Planescape material is setting specific and is not part of 5e core. Just a quick perusal of the 5e MM turns up that Salamanders are a slave race to Efreeti and hate Azers. AFAIK, this isn't part of Planescape. Is that part of Planescape lore that Efreeti tried to enslave Azers to build the City of Brass, failed and then enslaved salamanders to help them "unleash a war of destruction across the planes"? (MM 5e p265)? I'll admit my Planescape canon knowledge is extremely limited, but, it's the first I've heard of this. And 5e is replete with this sort of thing.

If I'm remembering correctly Planescape is silent on the matter... thus bringing us back to my point about changes vs. additions...

Which means if you want to use your Planescape material, you'll have to make changes to 5e lore. And, for some bizarre reason which I've never been able to understand, that's perfectly acceptable. But, using your Planescape material in 4e you'd have to make changes, but, that was unacceptable. I'm frankly rather baffled why it's both ways.

Your one example above doesn't really support the case you are making here.

Am I making changes or additions? What changes? Is it changes or additions? How widespread are these so called changes? These are the relevant questions in my mind. DO I have to tweak one race that's easy enough... or do I have to change an entire cosmology, change numerous races, eliminate vast swathes and so on.

In all honesty Planescape is a peculiar case b ecause part of it's canon is that primes often get the details of the planes wrong... and since we know the default for 5e is FR... well they are primes.

The older lore is right there for you to use. Either online in any number of sources, or, now, from the primary sources. You HAVE what you want. Why can't I have what I want too? Why does the lore you like have to be enshrined into the game, but, the lore you don't care for should be excised?

Yes as long as I pay premium prices for it (either through ebay or in getting it printed for use at the table) while also supplementing the new canon you want that I have no need for.

 

[Shasarak]

For instance, if someone has heard that in PS tieflings weren't all the same, but had different ancestries and different infernal traits, then that person already knows enough to implement the change in his/her 4e game!

There is a small step in between knowing Tieflings have different traits and implementing the change.

If I could paraphrase the Underpants Gnomes, it would go something like:

Step 1: Know Tieflings have different traits
Step 2: To be determined
Step 3: Implement the changes.

And I must admit that on paper that looks pretty easy.