D&D 5E Bel - Not Your Average Pit Fiend

[dave2008]

Hey thanks for all this feedback! Super helpful all around.

The DMG guidelines don't worry me too much, since many of the monsters in the MM don't follow the guidelines.

Actually the monsters in MM follows the DMG guidelines surprisingly closely. I find that people often forget or miss some of the steps in the DMG (like modifying for resistances, immunities, legendary resistance, etc.)

I'm looking at the two CR 30 monsters I have (Tiamat and Tarrasque.... which have a big power difference... guessing 30 is the CR cap) and I'm going from there.

But your Bel is much stronger offensively than either of them.

I definitely have a party of optimizers. I want to challenge them for sure, but not kill 'em outright.

Obviously it depends on your party but that could be a reason to bump him up so much. Personally though if they are high level and highly optimized / power gamers then I would worry more about his hit points than his damage. His defense trails his attack so much that he is a bit of a glass cannon. He is also any easy target for a force cage.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

He is also any easy target for a force cage.

Well on this he can just teleport out of it.

On Bel's difficulty. Tiamat will crush pretty much any party she fights. Unless they do a ton of rules exploitation and multiclassing in specific ways, pretty much no normal party can beat her. CR 30 is very powerful.

Hell if you give the Tarrasque a boulder throw and it's regen that it had in previous editions. It's super hard for pretty much any party to take down as well.

 

[NotActuallyTim]

CR needs measurement of expected Damage Output and expected Damage Taken, so the Tarrasque is a little wonky. As written, the guidelines could justifiably place it's CR well below 30 if it's expected to deal no damage at all. Expected tactics matter on both the party and the monsters parts.

If Bel's fire breath was cut down from a 90 ft cone to a 30 ft cone, for example, it would likely hit fewer targets, and as such, the expected damage would go down a fair bit. However, making it a recharging attack and an action instead of a legendary action would easily justify its current range of 90 ft.

Cutting it to a shorter cone and leaving it otherwise unchanged could also work pretty well with the legendary action mechanics. You might be able to go to 40 or 50 ft instead, even.

 

[Ancalagon]

The main power of Bel isn't his tons of HP, or fireball or whatnots.

It's that *he's a duke of hell*. The social power this gives him, the resources, the minions, is immense. That is the real threat.

 

[Jimbro]

The main power of Bel isn't his tons of HP, or fireball or whatnots.

It's that *he's a duke of hell*. The social power this gives him, the resources, the minions, is immense. That is the real threat.

He'll have them!

 

[dave2008]

Well on this he can just teleport out of it.

On Bel's difficulty. Tiamat will crush pretty much any party she fights. Unless they do a ton of rules exploitation and multiclassing in specific ways, pretty much no normal party can beat her. CR 30 is very powerful.

Hell if you give the Tarrasque a boulder throw and it's regen that it had in previous editions. It's super hard for pretty much any party to take down as well.

Yes,
I forgot about his telepot ability when I wrote that.

That is why i'm saying this Bel is overpowered as he would crush Tiamat and the Tarrasque together!

 

[dave2008]

Cutting it to a shorter cone and leaving it otherwise unchanged could also work pretty well with the legendary action mechanics. You might be able to go to 40 or 50 ft instead, even.

Technically he would still be overpowered, but he would be much closer and a more realistic threat for high end optimized party.

 

[Dausuul]

Yes,
I forgot about his telepot ability when I wrote that.

That is why i'm saying this Bel is overpowered as he would crush Tiamat and the Tarrasque together!

Keep in mind that forcecage requires a Cha save to escape via teleportation, and that is one of the few saves Bel is not proficient in. So it could at least burn a few of his legendary action slots before he made the save and got out (or cost a shot of his Legendary Resistance if he decided to force the issue).

 

[Jimbro]

Dave2008, I'm definitely going to lose some of the damages (probably fire breath all together). Fear not.

 

[dave2008]

Dave2008, I'm definitely going to lose some of the damages (probably fire breath all together). Fear not.

No worries. One thing about making it overpowered is it is fairly easy to dial it down during actual play if needed.