D&D 5E Multiclassing

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Those dips, most of the time, are not about the roleplay optimization of a character but instead about getting the best numbers/most powerful options. As your say in your reply, ''The optimization board usually starts off like this: I have this concept of blah and blah help me optimize this build around that concept.'' Those asking for advice on optimization are not looking for role-play advice. Nobody is replying, ''Well, try to imagine what motives your character, what drives them'' or ''Have you considered what responsibilities define your character?''

Well, of course not. You've just covered all that quite nicely, as have many before you (including me, albeit for a different game), so we don't need a forum. Unless you want an online course in acting. We do need a forum to help players make character concepts workable, since game mechanics are not intuitive. If they were, no one would spend all that money on rulebooks, and often even more money on rulebooks for new editions and new rpgs. An optimization forum helps players translate their ideas into effective characters, because it usually sucks to bring an incompetent character to the table. Everyone suffers. Unless by "roleplay optimization" you mean "how do I get as much spotlight for my character as possible without pissing everyone else off?" (Buying pizza is not sufficient. The *player* needs a decent Charisma or social skill proficiency to pull that off.) Anyway, Ken

 

[Corwin]

To the extent that your engagement with character creation is focused 100% on class abilities and their game-mechanical effect, yeah, probably. But again, so what?

And yet some people choose swashbuckler rogue "because they want to play a great swordsman devoted to his craft". You know, the exact same thing you claimed motivated a player to take battlemaster fighter. So which one is "right"? What made one chose the former and another the latter? Might it have been the mechanics they get, as a representation of that desired trope, and how those mechanics emulate it? Everyone needs to engage in the mechanics at character creation. And during advancement. I guess that means everyone is a powergamer.

 

[Greg Benage]

wut

You know what? Tis the season to be jolly! I like multiclassing. I use it in my games. Y'all are awesome. Game on, and Happy Holidays!

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

Hi, Well, of course not. You've just covered all that quite nicely, as have many before you (including me, albeit for a different game), so we don't need a forum. Unless you want an online course in acting. We do need a forum to help players make character concepts workable, since game mechanics are not intuitive. If they were, no one would spend all that money on rulebooks, and often even more money on rulebooks for new editions and new rpgs. An optimization forum helps players translate their ideas into effective characters, because it usually sucks to bring an incompetent character to the table. Everyone suffers. Unless by "roleplay optimization" you mean "how do I get as much spotlight for my character as possible without pissing everyone else off?" (Buying pizza is not sufficient. The *player* needs a decent Charisma or social skill proficiency to pull that off.) Anyway, Ken

I never suggested - or called for - a roleplay optimization forum and I'm not sure what your point is. Character roleplay optimization was mentioned as a hyberbolic contrast to highlight the act of mechanical optimization, which is obviously the key component to the Character Op forums. 'Effective' characters are all fine and good, and I hope we can agree that 'effective' and 'optimized' are all associated with 'power gaming', or if we prefer, share the commonality on focusing on squeezing the most mechanical power out of options available.

Just to make it clear, because you seem to have missed the point of my post: I am/was attempting to explain why many people associate multiclassing with power gaming, and referenced the Character Op forum - a forum where 'optimization', 'effecient character builds' and straight up 'power gaming' are common, practically defining, traits of the board. And a board where multiclassing just so happens to be offered as advice quite frequently. (Obviously not all at the same time, all the time, and not to the same degree at a given time.)

I would hope we can see how these two factors - a board that focuses on such activities and multiclassing often being offered as part of the advice on such board - might, for better or for worse, support the belief that multiclassing is (in whatever way) connected to power gaming.

And for the second (third?) time, for you or anyone else who missed it: I have never said that I agree with the association. Nor do I care if people power game/ask for help on building effective characters/optimize their characters. Heck, I enjoy crunching numbers as much as the next gamer.

Come to think of it, an 'Role Development Forum' isn't a bad idea hmm...

 

[Mad_Jack]

Come to think of it, an 'Role Development Forum' isn't a bad idea hmm...

There used to be a Character Development forum on the WotC boards. For narrative character help.

(Possibly one of the most frequent questions we received was, "I want to play a character who has this kind of background story and has these kinds of skills and can do X, Y, and Z kind of neat stuff... How do I make a mechanical character who represents those narrative choices?"... The other most common question was the exact inverse - "I have this Swashbuckler 3/Life cleric 4 that I want to play... How can I create a believable character who would have made those life choices?")

 

[Corwin]

wut

You know what? Tis the season to be jolly! I like multiclassing. I use it in my games. Y'all are awesome. Game on, and Happy Holidays!

???

I'm not sure we are having the same conversation. I've noticed this phenomenon occurring a lot around here lately. Has the forum come down with a case of non-sequitoritis? Weird.

 

[Corwin]

I would hope we can see how these two factors - a board that focuses on such activities and multiclassing often being offered as part of the advice on such board - might, for better or for worse, support the belief that multiclassing is (in whatever way) connected to power gaming.

You keep saying that. But people keep replying by telling you that generally the most optimal choice in 5e is single class. So keep insisting that multiclassing=powergaming all you like. It hasn't been shown to be the case. I certainly don't agree with you. And, look, I've played various single class characters in this edition, as well as some multiclassed (one of them having three classes, and getting as high as 16th level!). I just don't see it. Not here. Not in 5e. Please remove your previous-edition-colored glasses. It'll help, IMO. It did for me.

 

[Caliban]

???

I'm not sure we are having the same conversation. I've noticed this phenomenon occurring a lot around here lately. Has the forum come down with a case of non-sequitoritis? Weird.

He doesn't feel like bickering about it so he's bowing out of the conversation. I commend him for it.

My two cents - multiclassing is a means to an end. That end may be fully realizing a character concept that can't easily be accomplished with a single class (in spite of the flexibility that the various archtypes grant), it may be about combining class abilities to do something interesting, or it may be to powergame the hell out of some loophole you've identified.

Multiclassing is just a tool, used by RP'ers, optimizers, and powergamers. Like any tool, it's all in how you use it.

Overall, I believe that multi-classing results in more flexible, powerful characters in the 1-10 level range, but above level 11 you start seeing the benefits of single classing more (extra attacks from the fighter, lvl 6+ spells for the casters, etc.) and multi-classing doesn't seem like such a good deal. (The 1 or 2 level dip may be an exception, depending on the class and their capstone.)

 

[Satyrn]

To the extent that your engagement with character creation is focused 100% on class abilities and their game-mechanical effect, yeah, probably. But again, so what?

Well, I got irritated by your implication that powergaming is bad (no, you didn't say it explicitly, but it felt like it was there between the lines)

So my initial response was to proclaim that, yes, I do indeed consider mechanics when settling on which class to select for a character. Even if I signal my powergaming by doing so, I am happy to own that.

I don't know if I inferred correctly that you were implying power gaming is not a positive trait, though. So yeah, whatever.

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

You keep saying that. But people keep replying by telling you that generally the most optimal choice in 5e is single class.

Right. Just to be clear - do you realise what an assumption is? Regardless if chosing a single class in 5E is the 'best' for a given context, and regardless of those that feel the need to tell me something I already know, people still - for better of for worse - associate multiclassing with power gaming. And one of the reasons they might do this is due to advice given, on places such as Char Op, to multiclass.

And you state that I have some bias towards multiclassing. This is not correct. I have no problems with it - we simply choose not to do so with our groups to avoid paperwork and rule interaction debate/bullshankery.

I'll make this clear for folks in the back seats: Multiclassing is associated with powergaming.

If you or anyone else doens't think this is the case, then I don't know what to tell you. And yes, this regardless of the reality of the situation - that often a single class character will perform better, tho again, it depends on the context of play.

If you have a problem with people associating multiclassing with powergaming then.. Perhaps we can organise a protest march or some informative leaflets. Maybe this will encourage people to wake up and smell the 5E coffee. Or... not. Personally, I don't care if people associate multiclassing with powergaming. I know that they'll learn the truth through play.