D&D 5E Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.

Ashkelon

First Post
A few other things to note.

The crossbow archer can can carry a number of mundane daggers on his person. As such he can draw a dagger at the end of each turn to be used for opportunity attacks. A d4+5 damage opportunity attack isn't great, but it's still about 70% as effective as a d12+5 damage OA.

Combine this with the fact that OAs only occur very infrequently in actual gameplay and the whole argument about archers being unable to "tank" as well as a melee fighter becomes plainly visible as the yet another post truth perpetrated by those who have no grasp on how 5e combat actually plays out.
 

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hawkeyefan

Legend
What is reasonably balanced though?

Because even with terrain, varied encounters, and good use of player tactics, there have been plenty of rounds of combat where my greatsword wielding fighter had to dash just to engage an enemy. In our last game for example, out of ~16 rounds of combat, I spent 3 of them with no enemy within melee range. During these rounds, the ranged PCs were all still able to make attacks.

Sure. If you don't equip your melee fighter with any kind of ranged attack at all, then he won't be able to make ranged attacks and will instead have to do everything he can to close with his enemies. Maybe give him some javelins or handaxes to try and mitigate his lack of range. Sure, such attacks aren't going to be as effective as a ranged attacker's shot, but it's better than nothing.

There are a number of occasions where a melee fighter simply will not be able to contribute meaningfully in combat. This is undeniable fact.

There are a number of occasions where a ranged fighter simply will not be able to contribute meaningfully in combat. This is undeniable fact.

Both of these statements are true. The question is the frequency of each. It seems many tables experience more occasions of the melee fighter not being able to contribute. This is the DM's responsibility to recognize and, if it is an issue, to correct.

Some fights will start at more than 30 ft away. Sometimes enemies will spread out to surround the party or avoid AoE. Sometimes there will be squads of enemy ranged troops who prefer to fight at a distance. Sometimes there will be flying enemies that face the party. Sometimes enemies try to flee and need to be stopped. The ranged fighter suffers no loss in efficiency in these scenarios.

Sometimes enemies drop prone causing disadvantage to attacks from ranged fighters. Sometimes, enemies will step behind a rock and gain full cover, rendering ranged attacks useless. Sometimes enemies pop out of cover, fire, and then back to cover, forcing ranged fighters to ready actinos in order to get one shot at them, which limits the number of attacks. Sometimes enemies will be able to move right around the ranged combatant because they don't threaten with an opportunity attack.

Again, the DM needs to do what he can to create encounters that give all characters a chance to shine. If the entire party is made up of ranged fighters, then all fights can focus on ranged. If everyone in the party is a melee fighter, then ranged concerns aren't as big a deal. But if there is a mix....then the DM needs to mix things up.


IMHO the best solution to making weapons more equal in terms of power is this:

a) change the -5/+10 part of GWM and sharpshooter to impose disadvantage on your attack for + 1W damage (this ability can't be used if you already have disadvantage on your attack).

b) You provoke opportunity attacks when you cast a spell or make a ranged attack. Also, don't allow feats or fighting styles that prevent this OA.

These seem somewhat reasonable. I think the second is easier to remember and enforce....ranged attacks provoke opportunity attacks from adjacent foes.

A few other things to note.

The crossbow archer can can carry a number of mundane daggers on his person. As such he can draw a dagger at the end of each turn to be used for opportunity attacks. A d4+5 damage opportunity attack isn't great, but it's still about 70% as effective as a d12+5 damage OA.

Combine this with the fact that OAs only occur very infrequently in actual gameplay and the whole argument about archers being unable to "tank" as well as a melee fighter becomes plainly visible as the yet another post truth perpetrated by those who have no grasp on how 5e combat actually plays out.

So the loss of efficiency for a ranged fighter to make an OA with a dagger isn't a big deal, but the loss of efficiency a melee fighter takes for making a ranged attack is terrible?

There is no need to say that folks who disagree with you have no grasp of how combat plays out in 5E. I mean, my combats play out where there are many opportunity attacks made, and the threat of them is almost always a factor. That's how combat plays out at my table.

That doesn't mean that I get to accuse you of not grasping how 5E combat plays out. The answer is it plays out differently at different tables. Your table has an issue with balance between ranged combat and melee combat.....no need to accuse others who don't experience that problem as not knowing what they're doing.

I mean....it seems odd to tell someone who isn't having a problem that they're the one doing something wrong, no?
 

Corwin

Explorer
Combine this with the fact that OAs only occur very infrequently in actual gameplay...
This does not match my considerable experience. Or, at least, not in the context of that mechanic's importance WRT this conversation. We do see the occasional OA happen in our games, of course. Heck, two just last night in our weekly Tuesday night campaign session. But you know what is far, far more frequent than *actual* triggered OAs? The threat of a potential OA and how that impacts a creature's decision making. And that is the real meat here. Isn't it?
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
Combine this with the fact that OAs only occur very infrequently in actual gameplay and the whole argument about archers being unable to "tank" as well as a melee fighter becomes plainly visible as the yet another post truth perpetrated by those who have no grasp on how 5e combat actually plays out.

Have you heard about this feat called "Polearm Master"? Now OA's occur at least once a combat, and often 2-3 times a combat. And I see characters with Polearm Master about as often as I see characters with Sharpshooter, Great Weapon Master, or Crossbow Expert.
 

guachi

Hero
There are two problems I have that can affect what we are seeing.

One, having a melee weapon to parry with in melee has no effect whatsoever on your defense. I suppose this is why something like making a ranged attack while in melee range provoked an OA in the past (It did, didn't it?) because if you were shooting you weren't parrying.

Two, shields just aren't as useful as they seem to have been historically, especially against ranged attacks. Defending against a ranged attack with a shield was easy, just put the shield in front of you.

I'm not certain how one could mechanically simulate either of the two things I've described. Maybe say that any ranged attack or casting a spell with a range provoked an OA from opponents in melee range. And for point two you could say that a shield is +4 or whatever vs. a ranged attack instead of +2.
 

Ashkelon

First Post
Polearm master is a great feat for sure. In fact it is another feat I have issue with for being unbalanced, but that is a topic for another thread.

But even so, opportunity attacks are still being overvalued here.

As another poster said, 2 were made in his last session. Two whole opportunity attacks. In my last session, I lost 9 attacks as a fighter because enemies were too far away. Even if polearm master gives you 2 free OAs per combat, that would still only amount to 8 total attacks over that same gaming period. It still doesn't make up for missed out damage from being unable to attack for a few rounds.

And yes, the melee warrior still will carry a ranged weapon, but he is far more penalized for fighting at range than the ranged warrior is for fighting in melee. For example my fighter with his 12 Dex would have to drop his +1 greatsword (a foolish idea by any right) to attack with a longbow for 3 attacks with a very low chance to hit for only 1d8+1 damage each. Alternatively he could draw and throw a single spear. Either way, my fighter is roughly 25% as capable at ranged combat as he is in melee. On the other hand, the archer can make OAs at about 70% of the efficiency of my greatsword fighter.

Next you have the strange false dichotomy going on where people are saying monsters can use advanced tactics to fight the ranged crossbow fighter, but blindly move into melee combat with the polearm warrior. Any intelligent enemy will simply fight with ranged weapons and wait for the polearm fighter to close with them to avoid taking any OAs.

Finally, you have to realize that the archer fighter can fight at point blank range just as well as the melee fighter. So saying the archer will have times where he is unable to meaningfully act means that the melee fighter will be definition also be unable to meaningfully act. For example an enemy is 20 feet away and behind full cover, the melee fighter can just walk up and hit him. Well so can the archer fighter. If the enemy is 50 feet away and behind full cover, neither the archer nor crossbow fighter will be able attack that turn. If an enemy is prone, the crossbow archer can simply move into melee to gain advantage in attacks, just like the melee warrior. So any argument that there are instances where the melee warrior can act but the archer cannot simply do not exist. The reverse situation is far from true however.
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
Finally, you have to realize that the archer fighter can fight at point blank range just as well as the melee fighter.

Only true if they have a specific feat. Otherwise they have disadvantage on their attacks. So are we now assuming all hypothetical archers have two feats (Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert) and that no other types of ranged characters exist?

So saying the archer will have times where he is unable to meaningfully act means that the melee fighter will be definition also be unable to meaningfully act. For example an enemy is 20 feet away and behind full cover, the melee fighter can just walk up and hit him. Well so can the archer fighter. If the enemy is 50 feet away and behind full cover, neither the archer nor crossbow fighter will be able attack that turn. If an enemy is prone, the crossbow archer can simply move into melee to gain advantage in attacks, just like the melee warrior. So any argument that there are instances where the melee warrior can act but the archer cannot simply do not exist. The reverse situation is far from true however.

They exist in all instances where the archer doesn't have Crossbow Expert. Are you just pretending that archers without this specific feat don't exist? All archers start as level 6 fighters now, having used their two ABI's for Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert?

I agree that ranged weapon combat is a little too good compared to melee combat, but I feel you are overstating the case just a bit.
 

Have you heard about this feat called "Polearm Master"? Now OA's occur at least once a combat, and often 2-3 times a combat. And I see characters with Polearm Master about as often as I see characters with Sharpshooter, Great Weapon Master, or Crossbow Expert.

Once a combat, unless of course the combat occurs at range. :p (Including creatures with long-range melee attacks, like an Ancient White Dragon's 15' bite and 20' tail attack.)

Also, Invisible Stalkers are not normally subject to opportunity attacks because opportunity attacks require you to see your target. Some DMs would rule similarly for Polearm Master.
 

I'm not certain how one could mechanically simulate either of the two things I've described. Maybe say that any ranged attack or casting a spell with a range provoked an OA from opponents in melee range. And for point two you could say that a shield is +4 or whatever vs. a ranged attack instead of +2.

If you do this, you might want to tweak other rules too, like the rules for paralyzation. Paralyzation is already bizarre, but it would just get more bizarre if shooting a bow actually made you more vulnerable to attack than being completely unable to move a muscle. You could rule that anyone can make an opportunity attack on a paralyzed target with their reaction at any time.

Only true if they have a specific feat. Otherwise they have disadvantage on their attacks. So are we now assuming all hypothetical archers have two feats (Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert) and that no other types of ranged characters exist?

Crossbow Expert is not necessary. You can just draw a rapier with your object interaction and attack with that.
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
Once a combat, unless of course the combat occurs at range. :p (Including creatures with long-range melee attacks, like an Ancient White Dragon's 15' bite and 20' tail attack.)

Also, Invisible Stalkers are not normally subject to opportunity attacks because opportunity attacks require you to see your target. Some DMs would rule similarly for Polearm Master.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but 95%+ of combats do not involve Ancient White Dragons or Invisible Stalkers. And when they do, usually that isn't the only thing the party is fighting.

But if you want to use "Ranged Only" and "Invisible Opponents only" combats as a counter example, then I'll feel free to use "Under Water" combats and "Combats in a Raging Windstorm" for my side. How good is your bow now?
 
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