D&D 4E I love 5E, but lately I miss 4E's monsters

Not too terribly hard if you use the DM's Guidelines

4e kobold kirmisher:
HP: 27
AC: 15
Attack: +6, 1d8dmg
Special: combat advantage, mob attack, shifty, trap sense.


So by HP, you've got a CR 1/8. Attack bonus and AC is CR 5, damage is CR 1/4 (on average). .125 + .25 +5 +5 = 10.375 (divided by 4 for 4 categories) = 2.59. I'd round everything down, so 2.

Just an example, not to be used for a literal conversion. Admittedly, a lot of it will probably be arbitrary as to what feels right. For example, knowing what I know about CRs, I would always round down, rather than up.

I don't think calculating CR works that way... you search for hp and damage and just adjust CR a bit if AC is 2 higher or attack bonus is 2 higher. So by your example the Goblin is Defensive AC 1 or so and offensive too so at most it is CR 1 if not only 1/2.
 

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Cyvris

First Post
This is a cool video, and he makes some interesting points. But one of the things that I think he misses is when he talks about how 4e simply takes certain things like spell descriptions and put them into game mechanics terms, like saying a power is an "encounter" power, instead of saying this spell lasts 10 minutes, which would be about the same thing.


After watching the video the other week I've been thinking if 4e would have had a different reception if WotC HAD used different language to describe powers. Tie things to rests like 5e (Short Rest Spell/Ten Minute Duration) and I think lots of the "They are just cooldowns like an MMO" complaints would have been squashed. That, calling powers by a different name out of the gate (techniques vs spells), moving powers to their own section, and integrating rituals better probably would have saved 4e.
 

Oh, I DM'd it quite a bit! And it's still my second-favorite edition (no other edition beats it for flexibility, and while I prefer 5e overall, 4e is the edition you'd have the best chance of talking me into running again if 5e wasn't an option).

But the monster roles were often FAR too fiddly in practice to give much of a distinct identity to a creature IMXP. Yeah, 4e had brutes, but none of their +25% damage had even half of the psychological impact as the first hit a level 2 character sustains from a 5e ogre.

Couple things on this:

1) Brutes are always more potent when coupled with a Leader.

2) I'm wondering if your GM (or you) used updated math Brutes or MM3/MV Brutes (or the mid/later Dungeon ones). Speaking of Red Dragons? Low paragon tier multi-headed Red Dragon Calastryx (Brute)? A Wizard will have mid-60s HPs when Calastryx will be encountered;

a) Attacks on Init 30, 20, 10 (and 40 when Bloodied)
b) Does 28 damage with a Slide 3 rider (keeping you nice and close for furthing OMNOMNOMing...for sitting in her Breath Weapon conflagration rider = 10 fire damage/turn...better have a teleport or a Defender!).
c) Each of her 3 heads tracks Breath Weapon recharge and Rip and Tear usage on their own (so basically a possible 3-4 Breath Weapons or Multi-attacks on one combat turn...yikes).

That is a Brute. And that Wizard is lunch if things don't go right.

Sorry, I probably didn't mention it in my post: I was comparing the Adult versions of the dragon in 4e and 5e. I figured these were a pretty "fair" point of comparison on the 4e side, being smack in the middle of 4e's level arc, and so being powerful enough to be "real" dragons, but not so high level that they were unseen by most parties. Most 5e parties will be dealing with less powerful dragons, but their fundamental decision points don't tremendously change.

You actually picked the only dragon age that wasn't updated. Even if you would have picked a Young Dragon, things would have been different. Even still, while the non-updated Adults aren't remotely as nuanced/good as all the other dragons, they are still observably different from their kin in how each would manifest in play (which I thought was the premise?).

As far as the list of ancient blue powers goes...

a) is essentially in 5e (thanks, shove!)
b) is a slightly more fiddly version of any dragon's Wing Attack legendary action ("do damage and move away and prevent people who try and stop me")
c) and d) are unnecessary fiddly bits (c is "the dragon's most terrifying feature is that it makes you keep track of an ongoing effect with variable duration!", d is "alternate breath weapon")

Some pretty large pieces of the puzzle missing here.

a) The Opportunity Cost of subbing a 5e Dragon Multiattack for the Shove Action is way, way, way too steep. You better be ensured an auto-gib from fall death. First, you have to have a contest for it to work. Second, it is either 5 ft or prone, not both. Meanwhile, the 4e Blue Dragon is (i) doing a chunk of physical/lightning damage to you while (ii) automatically pushing you 3 squares and knocking you prone. Prone, which is a more punitive condition in 4e than it is in 5e.

That is a suite of melee riders built for a "mobile, sky-kiting, lightning/thunder hurler." Get out of melee and right back on the wing. And maybe drop someone off a cliff after you've NOMMED them.

b) Yes, my guess is 5e's "Wing Attack" was pulled directly from the Blue Dragon "Wingclap." The thing is though that all dragon's generically have Wing Attack as a 2 LA costing ability that does the same thing regardless of dragon. The premise (I thought) was distinctive things across the dragons. The 4e Blue Dragon's Wingclap synergizes with its other unique abilities to create a distinct draconic experience (very distinct from the Red) at the table for both player and GM.

You also have to consider everything in context (especially (a) and (b) above). 4e's melee is passively-persistently "sticky" with lots of participants having active abilities to punish or restrict movement (see the updated Red Dragon that you didn't use for your argument - 3 * mid/high DC Grapple + Interrupt on any movement within 4 squares and you get smashed and come right back next to "good ole red"). Everyone isn't just a Skirmisher by default. Having resources to escape the passive/active melee vortex is absolutely central to being a functional and effective Skirmisher or (in this case) ranged Artillery.

c) and d). C is what it is. Stunned until the end of your next turn nearly the entire time (5 % of the time saved ends instead...not too complicated). And D is what it is. Not just a "different breath weapon." Its another long range, deadly kiting tool. The difference between Range 20 and Close Blast 5 is gigantic (as you know).

I've got no real objections to some option to apply some role to a monster ("Mobile attacker!"), but I'm glad the MM versions of these creatures rely on bigger distinctions and smaller action lists.

The Lair Effects (which I touted all through the playtest as the best 5e tech along with the Background Traits and a few other things that didn't make the cut) and Regional Effects are what make the 5e dragon's distinctive. Their basic chassis is entirely nondescript (save for Burrow vs Climb...which, given the fleeting fury of 5e combat, may...or very well may not...be featured for a sparing moment on-screen).

They each need a personalized suite of synergizing Legendary Actions.
 
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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
What I think he misses, though, is that the whole point of Dungeons and Dragons as a role-playing game is the immersive aspect of it. The language is a part of that immersive aspect. When you change the language, you are essentially changing the nature of the game. When I want to play a "role," I want to think about magic as my character would. The world should represent that.

Having watched all of his other videos and how he thinks and acts as a Dungeon Master, I actually believe that he's not "missing" this aspect per se... but rather just believes that making the game immersive is the role of the DM. That's his job. And thus what is written in the book doesn't really matter, because the DM is meant to take those things and flourish (or not flourish) them as much (or as little) as they want.

Now if some DMs want (or expect) their game books to do a lot of the flourishment for them... then that's fine, and there are plenty of books and games that do. "Naturalistic language" and "flavor text" and "long descriptions" (that you might find in 5E or 3E) definitely evoke a different feel while reading it than the more mechanical blocks that make up 4E's manuals. But when you actually play the game... if your combat is mechanical, it's cause you're allowing and playing it as mechanical. But you can just as easily play it as "naturalistic" or "flavorful" if you put in the effort. I just don't know how many DMs, players or tables really put in that effort.

So you can take 4E and play it gridless or "theater of the mind", and evoke all the flavor and description you want if you actually just do it yourself. A 4E Sleep spell thrown at the table can be virtually identical to a 5E Sleep spell thrown at the table so long as you decide to describe the casting of the spell, rather than just throw down its mechanical function. Thus it doesn't matter whether one is a "Daily power" versus one that uses a "1st level spell slot"... unless you actually are running the game (and combat especially) from a mechanical terminology point of view.

And THAT'S where your point of "language is important" comes into play-- because I think the real issue ended up being not that people didn't like 4E's "mechanical language" versus 3/5E's "naturalistic language"... it was that they didn't like 4E's "mechanical language" versus 3/5E's "mechanical language".

Colville's right in that there really is no difference between calling something a "Daily power" versus a "1st level spell slot". They're both mechanical expressions to dictate how often someone can use something. Likewise there's no difference between a "tank" versus a "Defender" because they both have the same job and do that job. And no difference between an "Encounter power" and a spell with a "1 minute duration" because they both last for generally a single fight. "Healing surge" versus "Hit dice"? Sam general principle, same general effect.

But it's only because most players were so used to using the "mechanical language" of 3E (and what got re-imported into 5E) that the 4E "mechanical language" just seemed jarring and felt wrong. There was nothing actually wrong with the language in of itself (and indeed, those people who started with 4E never seemed to have these issues of mechanical language)... it was only older players who saw the language change for what they felt was for real no reason (and probably more importantly no real gain) that fought against it.

I remember quite clearly when Essentials was released, and all of the new "powers" of each PC were written graphically in the style of 3E spells rather than the color-coded blocks of standard 4E that many players said "If original 4E had looked and felt like this, more people probably would have been more accepting of the game." And I think that might very well have been true. Essentials basically presented the exact same 4E game with 4E mechanics but just used the 3E style and it became a bit more tolerable for many older players. Because the "mechanical language" that moved more towards "naturalistic language" just felt better... despite there being literally no difference in the game itself.

I think we're pretty much saying the same thing at the end of the day-- the language does matter. But I think it only matters when you're reading the book, and not when you're at the table. At the table, durations are durations, targets are targets, effects are effects, and attacks and damage are attacks and damage... regardless of the terminology the book uses to describe them. And if you're a Dungeon Master... and that terminology actually matters to you during the game... then your job as a DM is to make the game what you want. You don't need the book itself to do the work for you.

If it does do the work for you... then great, you lucked out! The book feels like it was written specifically for you! (And why I think so many previous edition players find themselves drawn back to 5E). But it doesn't have to be written that way for you to still play it and run it the way you want it to... using any and all naturalistic and/or mechanical language you so choose. So pull that 4E monster power out of the 4E Monster Manual and tape it to your 5E Adult Black Dragon statblock! There's no reason why you shouldn't, and if the language matters just change the language of that power to the language you prefer when you do! No harm, no foul! Whatever works best for you!
 

Dualazi

First Post
This is a cool video, and he makes some interesting points. But one of the things that I think he misses is when he talks about how 4e simply takes certain things like spell descriptions and put them into game mechanics terms, like saying a power is an "encounter" power, instead of saying this spell lasts 10 minutes, which would be about the same thing. His argument is that it's really all the same, but some people didn't like that mental shift from a story-driven terminology to a game mechanic terminology, whereas other people don't have a problem with that mental shift.

What I think he misses, though, is that the whole point of Dungeons and Dragons as a role-playing game is the immersive aspect of it. The language is a part of that immersive aspect. When you change the language, you are essentially changing the nature of the game. When I want to play a "role," I want to think about magic as my character would. The world should represent that.

There are several problems with this really. First off, most of those descriptors should be on the DM side of things, and you could organize the MM in 5e as such and the players would never be the wiser without either peeking in the book or the DM divulging that information. Mearls and co. pretty much confirmed this when being asked about the UA article regarding the Arcane Archer's 1/minute restriction on magic arrows; it's just a per encounter structure written in less helpful dialogue. Secondly, I'm not really sure how the 4e encounter powers made you think differently about magic, either from your character's point of view or your own. Even in 5e there are still some monsters with signature magic abilities that differ from spells, and the DM could always homebrew new spells as always.

If we suddenly decide to talk about powers as "encounter powers," then we are making a subtle shift out of our immersion to a kind of meta-game mentality. When we start to think more about "sliding a character back two squares," what is a square? It's a meta-game mechanic that takes you out of the immersiveness; Suddenly you're not a person in an ancient world, now you're a mini on a game map, and your brain will subtly realize it. You will lose the immersiveness.

The problem is that if you peek under the hood even casually, all that stuff is still present, just mildly obfuscated. Isn't it convenient how every creature moves in 5ft increments? Isn't it strange how every spellcaster in the world casts Lightning Bolt the same way, or goes the exact same distance with Misty Step?

In relation to monster design, this is doubly true. 4e was great in that it realized that a huge number of monsters weren't going to outlive the session, and instead focused on making their statblocks relevant to that short period of time, to make them feel distinct and impactful.

Is it still a fun game? Yeah I still think 4e is a fun game, but it's a meta, grid-mechanic game, and loses some of that important role-playing immersion. Language is important. And apparently the unpopularity of 4e is a testament to how important immersion (and the use of natural language in spell descriptions) is to the idea of role-playing.

Let's not at all get into why 4e did or didn't fail. It's spanned hundreds if not thousands of posts here an elsewhere, and it's just going to derail the thread with people who can't resist defending it.

This is ultimately my concern with monster design that goes overboard with special abilities or gimmicks. Or having monsters with types that scale up from level 1 to the level cap. Aside from the treadmill problem, it also breaks immersion for me. Is that how the world would actually function? Sometimes an ogre is just a big strong monster with a club. It doesn't need to have an extra gimmick. And there are plenty of other strange monsters that do have unique traits. That plus the DM being able to tell an interesting story with dynamic fighting tactics is what I require.

There's certainly room for big dumb beatsticks, but it really boils down to which ratio of complex monsters to simple monsters people enjoy. I personally think there's a lot of room for more complexity without damaging the game, and there are certainly monsters that I feel should be more complex but aren't. Your mileage may vary, of course.
 

D

dco

Guest
My problem with 4 edition is that it becomes a boardgame when you have a fight, and the monster stats where better suited for that kind of play.
From the 5 edition I don't like that monsters and enemies are not created like players, they are lacking powers, they are lacking skills and they are lacking saves. It also doesn't help you only have a standard attack, shove and grapple, a passive defense, etc, the system feels lacking a bit on what should be the main strenght, combat.
 

This is ultimately my concern with monster design that goes overboard with special abilities or gimmicks. Or having monsters with types that scale up from level 1 to the level cap. Aside from the treadmill problem, it also breaks immersion for me. Is that how the world would actually function? Sometimes an ogre is just a big strong monster with a club. It doesn't need to have an extra gimmick. And there are plenty of other strange monsters that do have unique traits. That plus the DM being able to tell an interesting story with dynamic fighting tactics is what I require.

A oger might just be a big strong monster with a club especialy at later levels, but at lower levels a ogre might be the end boss of a dungeon/adventure.
In the second case the Ogre is more like a enemy NPC then just a monster and a Dm might want to add something to make him stand out more.


It might be interesting to have a system you can add extra abilities to a creature when you want that creature to feal special and have it stand out among it's peers.
it should also be quick and easy to add these optional powers without having to do a total re calculation of the creatures CR.
maybe a system where you don't modify the CR but the creature does award more xp then the standard version.
for example you might have abilities where if you would add them you would add the creatures CR*10 to the amount of XP you would get for defeating the creature.
 

Kalshane

First Post
lets see what happesn if I give it a quick attempt with a adult blur dragon from 4th edition.

sts:23 dex:16 con:19 int:13 wis:14 cha:14

Initiative +3
Hp: 655
AC 24 proficient in con saves. (+6 prof bonus)
Resist lightning
speed 40 fly 50
Action surge as fighter ability

Attacks
multi attack the dragon makes 1 gore and 2 claw attacks.
Gore reach 10 +12 vs ac 1d8+6 +1d6 lightning damage and the target is pushes 5 feet and knocked prone.
Claw reach 10 +10 vs ac 1d6+6

Breath weapon recharge on 5 and 6
range 30 feet 3 targets within 30 feet the initial target +2 other targets within 15 feet of the first target
dex save Dc 20 2d12+10 lightning damage half damage ona sucesfull save.

The first time the dragon is reduced below half Hp (327) it's breatweapon recharges and the dragon can use it imidiately as a reaction.

Frightful presence once per short rest.
al enemies within 25 feet of the dragon DC20 will save ona failed save thew targets are stunned untill the end of the dragons next turn.

lightning burst.
20 feet radius within 100 feet 3d6+4 lightning damage Dc 20 refex save half damage on a sucessfull save.

655 HP cr 26 +2 for ac 25 = Defensive Cr 28
most damage is caused with the Gore claw claw attack taking this attack 4 times in 3 rounds for action surge makes a avarage damage of 37 per round
making it cr 5 +3 for the +12 attack bonus maakes ofensive CR 8

Avarage Cr : 18

That sounds like a slog-fest. AC 24 and over 600hps means that PCs are going to be whiffing more often than they hit and it's going to take a lot of hits to bring it down. On the flip-side, the damage the dragon is putting out is going to be laughable to most PCs of that level. On the other hand, with only proficiency in Con saves, a Save or Suck spell is likely to immediately take it out of the fight in the first round, which is anti-climatic in its own way.
 

The Human Target

Adventurer
This is a cool video, and he makes some interesting points. But one of the things that I think he misses is when he talks about how 4e simply takes certain things like spell descriptions and put them into game mechanics terms, like saying a power is an "encounter" power, instead of saying this spell lasts 10 minutes, which would be about the same thing. His argument is that it's really all the same, but some people didn't like that mental shift from a story-driven terminology to a game mechanic terminology, whereas other people don't have a problem with that mental shift.

What I think he misses, though, is that the whole point of Dungeons and Dragons as a role-playing game is the immersive aspect of it. The language is a part of that immersive aspect. When you change the language, you are essentially changing the nature of the game. When I want to play a "role," I want to think about magic as my character would. The world should represent that.

If we suddenly decide to talk about powers as "encounter powers," then we are making a subtle shift out of our immersion to a kind of meta-game mentality. When we start to think more about "sliding a character back two squares," what is a square? It's a meta-game mechanic that takes you out of the immersiveness; Suddenly you're not a person in an ancient world, now you're a mini on a game map, and your brain will subtly realize it. You will lose the immersiveness.

Is it still a fun game? Yeah I still think 4e is a fun game, but it's a meta, grid-mechanic game, and loses some of that important role-playing immersion. Language is important. And apparently the unpopularity of 4e is a testament to how important immersion (and the use of natural language in spell descriptions) is to the idea of role-playing.

This is ultimately my concern with monster design that goes overboard with special abilities or gimmicks. Or having monsters with types that scale up from level 1 to the level cap. Aside from the treadmill problem, it also breaks immersion for me. Is that how the world would actually function? Sometimes an ogre is just a big strong monster with a club. It doesn't need to have an extra gimmick. And there are plenty of other strange monsters that do have unique traits. That plus the DM being able to tell an interesting story with dynamic fighting tactics is what I require.

Does your character talk about saving throws? Their hit point total? Their feats? Their armor class? Their proficiency bonus? Spell levels? Challenge ratings? Experience points?

Don't those terms break immersion?
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Not exactly. The 'backwards' trend-line isn't really from 4e but from 3e, when monsters were designed with very nearly the same depth of options as PCs. So it's not one instance where 5e changed direction. Maybe that's the same thing for your purposes, but I find it a distinction. 4e pulled back from 3e's peak of monster complexity back towards the 'monsters are different' de-facto philosophy of the classic game, 5e continued in that direction. FWIW.
I don't see 4e and 5e as nearly as similar.

Both for good and for bad (mostly good), 5e is much more akin to 3e in general.

Fun mechanical details (but without overwhelming nitty grittiness) is one of the best things 4e improved on from 3e.

5e kind of threw out the baby with the bathwater here. Not going back to mindboggling complexity a la 3e was good, but overdoing it so that almost nothing remains of 4e style fun mechanical details is less good.
 

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