D&D 4E Rewards in 4e

[AbdulAlhazred]

By Rewards, we're talking about Reward Cycles, as in the positive feedback loop that is a staple of indie design, yes?

Well, I was thinking specifically of the sort of rewards that exist in 'classic' D&D, where you gain some treasure. Treasure is of course sort of meaningless, but your character CAN use it to achieve various forms of power, so I suppose you can propose that this is analogous to leveling up in a sense (putting aside that said mechanism ALSO exists separately in classic D&D and also interacts with treasure in a couple of ways).

So. Definitely need to refine, conceptually, what we're thinking about here, for sure!

Now, I was thinking about rewards in terms of their influence on player (and character if they are in-game rewards) decisions.

1) Milestones - Well, its actually feasible to vary the effects of a milestone based on character/player decisions. It could be as simple as getting better milestones if you take more risk, or maybe just there's 'stuff' in high risk areas that you can achieve at a milestone that is better than normal (IE a 'healing fountain' or something). Of course this is a somewhat ephemeral reward, so I'm not sure its really what I'm getting at.

2) Quest System - Now, currently in 4e, quests are strictly an XP thing. I mean, they might also trigger a parcel, narratively, but game-structure-wise they just grant XP, so indirectly lead to faster leveling, but as with treasure they're kind of 'built in' to the system, unlike classic D&D treasure, which is a purely 'above and beyond' reward (albeit some is rather expected). Still, there may be something to look into here. Suppose for instance there was a 'stakes' measurement. You take a quest, in the fulfillment of that quest you wager stakes, that is take real risks, and the resulting XP is proportional. Wager too much, you may fail and get nothing. That's starting to sound more interesting and a possible a bit more gamist.

3) SCs (encounter rewards generally we could say) - Well, odd that you mention Strike! and invoking/allowing a complication, as I actually constructed such a mechanic for my HoML experimentation. I don't see ANY reason it wouldn't work in 4e. You create a 'character attribute' and you can generate 'inspiration' by playing against it, or generate 'advantage' by spending said 'inspiration'. It seems to work a lot better than 5e's version, which I didn't find to be very engaging. I'm still a bit fuzzy in my design on the details of what the 'advantage' is, it could literally be advantage (roll 2d20 take the best one) but I think allowing a favorable plot twist or something a bit bigger than a mere tweak to die roll is OK. This could also translate to permanent rewards via some simple narrative magic, you spend inspiration and create a new magic item, monetary reward, etc.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

What about non-material rewards? I have often wondered if you could have a reputation/honour system built into 4e, where higher reputation for a given PC give bonuses to dealing with relevant organisations and access resources at higher level.

That's what I do, more or less. They gain useful contacts, non adventuring resources like an island, a ship, access to a library of exclusive nature, patronage of a power individual, etc.
one time, a fellow DM in our round table FR game had a group of Druids we helped give us each a potted tree, which would grow on command, one time, to create something as large as a house, and would then remain whatever it had grown into.

 

[Garthanos]

I see milestones as a great example of rewarding the taking extra risk... it gives hints of how to measure extra risk in a game where under most rested conditions there is a reasonable high measure of safety.

 

[S'mon]

OK, so, we were taking up [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] Blood Demand thread with the topic of rewards in 4e and the dearth of mechanisms for them. My conclusion was that treasure doesn't work as a reward in 4e (Well, it was [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s as well to be fair, maybe everyone's). Is there something that DOES work, or how would such a thing be appended to the game? Would it require an actual reworking of 4e itself?

This was my last post on the other thread, so maybe that is a starting point.

XP works as a reward, in my experience. It doesn't have to be just a 'pacing mechanism'. Quest XP awards are particularly useful if called out as such and can be given for a wide variety of achieved goals. You can also give exploration XP, probably on the minor quest scale.

I believe treasure and magic items can also work as rewards in 4e, and will be trying out this novel concept in my new 4e campaign starting Thursday. To do this obviously requires some tweaks to the base system - reduced availability of purchased & crafted magic items, awards based on Encounter Level or dungeon depth rather than strictly on Party level, that sort of thing.

My current Magic Items Level by Encounter Level/Dungeon Level table looks like this; the campaign world is capped at 20th level:

1 d6
2 d6
3 d8
4 d8
5 d10
6 d10
7 d8+2
8 d6+4
9 d6+5
10 d6+6
11 d6+7
12 d6+8
13 d6+9
14 d6+10
15 d6+11
16 d6+12
17 d6+13
18 d6+13
19 d6+14
20 d6+14

I'll probably tweak it in practice, but the general idea is to have a treasure distribution similar to Classic D&D. PCs will likely often have items one "+" below their current demi-tier, but I don't think that is a problem especially as in this campaign higher level PCs will often face monsters a few levels lower than them (say 2-4 lower for standards, more for minions), and 4e is robust enough that a single + is useful but the lack of it not a very big deal.

 

[Garthanos]

based on Encounter Level or dungeon depth rather than strictly on Party level, that sort of thing.

Not seeing this as different? "strictly on Party level"

Encounter levels tend to be driven by party level (just as back in the very first DMG), in order to be sufficiently challenging for the PCs ... but encounter level is where treasure is tied to any way.

Of course you then mention.

specially as in this campaign higher level PCs will often face monsters a few levels lower than them

 

[darkbard]

Well, I was thinking specifically of the sort of rewards that exist in 'classic' D&D, where you gain some treasure. Treasure is of course sort of meaningless, but your character CAN use it to achieve various forms of power, so I suppose you can propose that this is analogous to leveling up in a sense (putting aside that said mechanism ALSO exists separately in classic D&D and also interacts with treasure in a couple of ways).

When we first started discussing this in the other thread, I immediately began thinking along the lines of 5E's Downtime Activities and its 4E trial balloon, the Dragon 424 article "Achievements" by Robert Schwalb. Therein he breaks Achievements down to four categories: Association, Influence, Information, and Material. But the system isn't developed as fully as it could be, nor is it divorced from the treasure rewards system (which, as most of us seem to agree, is really just a subset of combat character mechanics--or choices between combat utility and resources spent that take away from that ability, a pernicious divide if ever there was one!).

My initial concept is that, by divorcing the traditional rewards economy (i.e. magic items and combat utility) from a separate monetary economy that contributes to the kind of social "pillar" reward that Schwalb presents, things become much more interesting as characters build and make choices within both of these pillars.

For example, as it stands right now, the group that ventures into the Dungeon of the Fire Opal and retrieves that fist sized ruby from the statue of the efreet has little option but to sell it to buy magic items to advance their characters according to expected development. But that seems a waste of a potential plot item. Couldn't that item serve as a locus of intrigue and influence in the gameworld, and outside of DM fiat? (I mean, it's always easy enough for the DM to have assassins from an ancient fire cult come after the jewel, etc., but I'm talking about player empowerment in world building, in the same way that making background choices, feat choices, magic item choices, etc. can drive the narrative.)

Might not those who carry the jewel achieve influence in the Crimson Court of the tiefling duke by fashioning it as the centerpiece of a crown, for instance, or use it to create a permanent portal to the City of Brass, etc.? Wouldn't it be great to track the wealth of characters as they advance in level according to such a parallel rewards system to drive gameplay in other ways beyond simply as units to be instantly exchanged for the best magic items?

 

[MoutonRustique]

When we first started discussing this in the other thread, I immediately began thinking along the lines of 5E's Downtime Activities and its 4E trial balloon, the Dragon 424 article "Achievements" by Robert Schwalb. Therein he breaks Achievements down to four categories: Association, Influence, Information, and Material. But the system isn't developed as fully as it could be, nor is is divorced from the treasure rewards system (which, as most of us seem to agree, is really just a subset of combat character mechanics--or choices between combat utility and resources spent that take away from that ability, a pernicious divide if ever there was one!).

My initial concept is that, by divorcing the traditional rewards economy (i.e. magic items and combat utility) from a separate monetary economy that contributes to the kind of social "pillar" reward that Schwalb presents, things become much more interesting as characters build and make choices within both of these pillars.

For example, as it stands right now, the group that ventures into the Dungeon of the Fire Opal and retrieves that fist sized ruby from the statue of the efreet has little option but to sell it to buy magic items to advance their characters according to expected development. But that seems a waste of a potential plot item. Couldn't that item serve as an item of intrigue and influence in the gameworld, and outside of DM fiat? (I mean, it's always easy enough for the DM to have assassins from an ancient fire cult come after the jewel, etc., but I'm talking about player empowerment in world building, in the same way that making background choices, feat choices, magic item choices, etc. can drive the narrative.)

Might not those who carry the jewel achieve influence in the Crimson Court of the tiefling duke by fashioning it as the centerpiece of a crown, for instance, or use it to create a permanent portal to the City of Brass, etc.? Wouldn't it be great to track the wealth of characters as they advance in level according to such a parallel rewards system to drive gameplay in other ways beyond simply as units to be instantly exchanged for the best magic items?

With regards to the latter part, treasures could become [non-combat "magic" items], in a sense.

Such a thing could be added to 4e w/o any system addition necessary (in a sense) : much like artifacts, these items could come with built-in properties that achieve what we may be looking for:

The Lost Ruby of the Blue Falcon:
- worth 45,000 gp if sold
- grants to a known owner a +2 bonus to social skills in any kind of financial deal-making
- if displayed or worn by the owner, allows the owner a +5 bonus to Intimidate
- when carried, imposes a -2 penalty to Stealth
- can be used as the focal component for a portal to the Brass City. The ruby need not be permanently set, but opening the portal always requires the ruby be physically present for the entire casting, using, operating, and duration of the ritual.

A potential starting point for something like this (I know the example I gave is pretty blah) would be the [ritual items] that were in... memory fails at the moment...

 

[S'mon]

Not seeing this as different? "strictly on Party level"

Encounter levels tend to be driven by party level (just as back in the very first DMG), in order to be sufficiently challenging for the PCs ... but encounter level is where treasure is tied to any way.

No, 4e D&D treasure awards are entirely keyed to party level. Check the 4e DMG or RC page 300
"Treasure by Party level".

 

[Garthanos]

No, 4e D&D treasure awards are entirely keyed to party level. Check the 4e DMG or RC page 300
"Treasure by Party level".

Nods, (ok I have been auto doing it wrong/house ruling LOL shows what DMing a long time can do )- functionally it doesnt seem different as over the course of an entire level seems like unless you fail to challenge your players there would be plenty of level appropriate incidents to tie the reward to. Put most of the good stuff on the more challenging ones and other stuff scattered through out.

It seems the parcel system is called a "recommendation" I think distributing the better items to the more challenging situations is my recommendatin

 

[MoutonRustique]

Nods, (ok I have been auto doing it wrong/house ruling LOL shows what DMing a long time can do )- functionally it doesnt seem different as over the course of an entire level seems like unless you fail to challenge your players there would be plenty of level appropriate incidents to tie the reward to. Put most of the good stuff on the more challenging ones and other stuff scattered through out.

For most (I think) games, there is no actual difference, you are quite correct.

The official method (tied to party level) leads to a tighter system - the implications and such have been hashed to death and usually lead to much gnashing of teeth, nails, hair, and other, less savory things... so, yeah, let's not.