D&D 5E What the Weaponmaster needs in 5e, and how to make it happen.

[Tony Vargas]

For those who don't recall, the Weaponmaster was the early name of the Battlemaster in the playtest, and the de-facto sub-class name retroactively applied to all 4e fighters when they were superseded by the Essentials Knight & Slayer. (It was also a Dragon Mag fighter build with a few powers that did different things depending on what weapon you used, but I'm guessing that's not important).

So, as the title suggests, the Battlemaster ain't the Weaponmaster. For one thing, the Weaponmaster had sub-classes of it's own - Defender, Greatweapon, Battlerager, Tempest, Brawler, & Arena builds. For another, of course, it was stuffed in the Martial/Defender 4e-Role box (so effective ranged combat was oddly out). (Getting away from that last parenthetical is a good thing, given that 5e doesn't have roles, and makes it (finally!) seamless to go STR v DEX for attack.) But, the depth possible with the Weaponmaster isn't possible with the Battlemaster, and the Battlemaster has given up both that and a lot of the Weaponmaster's 'Defender' functionality in exchange for a big pile of DPR. As with the Warlord, that pile of DPR makes it hard to wedge the Weaponmaster concept into the very limited remaining design space of a fighter sub-class.

I see two obvious ways to address the DPR-crowding issue with the fighter.

1) Divert Extra Attack, somehow. That is, the sub-class(es) that take up the Weaponmaster's mantle have a feature that makes extra attack do something other than a bland extra attack. Like, oh, each round you're entitled to Extra Attack you get a free CS die? IDK. Still not a game designer, me.

2) New class! It's not like there are way too many non-casting classes in 5e!


I wouldn't mind hearing some others.


Then there's the depth-of-play/flexibiliity/etc provided by 'exploits' (martial powers) in 4e. 5e comes up short in several ways. One is that it's all relative - to the depth/flexibiity/power/resources of spells, that is. A 4e Weaponmaster had a set of attack options and resources that were only slightly inferior to the typical caster's. By contrast, the Battlemasters handful of maneuvers and CS dice don't even stack up favorable to its "1/3rd caster" sibling, the Eldritch Knight, who gains 4 levels of spells over his career.

By the same token, the Eldritch Knight is essentially a cut-rate fractional wizard, like a pre-measured Fighter/Wizard multiclass. The Battlemaster's features, then, is analogous to a multiclass-like fraction of an implied maneuver-based class. One that's as far ahead of the battlemaster in maneuvers as the Wizard is beyond the EK in spells.
That'd be something.
Possibly a basis for the Weaponmaster.

 

[Simonb1]

Hi all,

If you think that the weaponmaster is a fighter who is very good at defending himself, then I would give him some modified Bardic Inspiration/Cutting Word ability to reduce attack rolls and eventually damage against himself.

Simon

 

[Tony Vargas]

Hi all,

If you think that the weaponmaster is a fighter who is very good at defending himself,

Defending allies, actually. The basic fighter chassis with high hps, heavy armor, & Second Wind can claim some pretty good self-defense.

then I would give him some modified Bardic Inspiration/Cutting Word ability to reduce attack rolls and eventually damage against himself.

Simon

That could add a little depth, though, any flexibility could... I suppose those could be non-actions, or on-turn that last until the next turn, or Reactions (though demand for reactions can get pretty intense, especially with the Protection style and/or with feats available).

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] That's a very stream of consciousness post. As you're aware, I've done a lot of homebrew design with the fighter, and I might be able to collaborate or help...if I knew what your question was.

Could you maybe articulate what you're asking in a sentence?

I *think* you're asking how to incorporate 4e-style Powers in the 5e Fighter class?

 

[Tony Vargas]

The Warlord thread had me thinking about other things that were missing from 4e. Just hoped to spark some ideas.

 

[Quickleaf]

But, the depth possible with the Weaponmaster isn't possible with the Battlemaster, and the Battlemaster has given up both that and a lot of the Weaponmaster's 'Defender' functionality in exchange for a big pile of DPR.

So...if I'm following you...you're saying that because the PHB Battlemaster includes spending Superiority Dice to deal extra damage....that limits the depth possible with the Battlemaster?

And that the 4e Fighter (specifically the Powers-based "Weaponmaster") allows for greater depth somehow?

I'm not sure I follow that premise.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So...if I'm following you...you're saying that because the PHB Battlemaster includes spending Superiority Dice to deal extra damage....that limits the depth possible with the Battlemaster?

The DPR focus is also in fighter chassis which has Extra attack & Action Surge, too. The 'depth' issue is a few things... Because there's a dozen or so BM maneuvers* vs hundreds of fighter exploits*. And because CS dice are 1-hr rest recharge (expectation, about every-other encounter), vs exploits being at-will, encounter (recovering about twice as fast) and daily as well as both attack and utility. And because maneuvers are all in essence 'low level' - ie you can choose any of them at 3rd level, none are 'higher level.'

So, depth of choice, depth of play, that kind of depth.

And that the 4e Fighter (specifically the Powers-based "Weaponmaster") allows for greater depth somehow?

Sure seemed to, though that was alongside casters with far /less/ depth of choice and the like than in 5e. So that contrast could have something to do with it, too.



































* isn't 'maneuvers' just a way better name than 'exploits?' I mean, seriously.

 

[Lanliss]

Having never played it, I can only say what sounds fun to me. I would give the sub-classes (like great weapon fighter, or Defender) a limited set of weapon based bonuses, which actually depend on their weapon. A Maul and a Greatsword would provide different bonuses, possibly passive, or an interesting and thematic Active move. These would be limited by a martial resource that scales like Ki or Sorcery Points (I don't know what to call it, Stamina, insight, Flex-points?).

So, a second level Great Weapon WM could do a Thrust with greatsword, and get 1 autocrit (if they hit) at the cost of a flex-point. A Maul user OTOH could do a Smash! attack, allowing them to deal damage and knock a target prone. Also allow for spending FP in a similar way to monk, to do extra things (like enter the Dodge action after an attack). I would lay these abilities out at set levels, so it would look a bit like Hunter Rangers layout, but instead of picking a single ability you get them all as options, dependent on your weapon.

I would also put the cap stone in the subclass, so you can get a nice thematic, or useful, bonus specifically for a GW user (maybe something like being able to use it one handed? idk)

 

[Quickleaf]

The DPR focus is also the fighter chassis has Extra attack, too. The 'depth' issue is a few things... Because there's a dozen or so BM maneuvers* vs hundreds of fighter exploits*. And because CS dice are 1-hr rest recharge (expectation, about every-other encounter), vs exploits being both encounter and daily. And because maneuvers are all in essence 'low level' - ie you can choose any of them at 3rd level, none are 'higher level.'

So, depth of choice, depth of play, that kind of depth.

Gotcha.

1. The "depth" of 4e fighter powers is overrated. First, in regards to assessing the "great depth" of 4e fighter powers... I played and GMed a lot of 4e both with a fighter in the party and playing a fighter... and many of those powers were essentially variations on the same thing. I haven't done a comprehensive spreadsheet or anything, but my gut sense is that roughly 60% of the fighter powers from the 4e PHB and Martial Power were copycats of one another, just with higher damage dice or some barely significant change in how they worked.

In other words, the depth of 4e fighter powers doesn't actually play out at the table as deep as it looks on paper. Because there's a lot of "samey" powers.

2. Recharge mechanics (encounter/daily/short rest/long rest/superiority dice) for fighter powers are narratively incongruous. While it makes narrative sense for something like Second Wind to be limited (we can imagine ourselves doing wind sprints and realizing that, yes, it does take time to get our wind back), it makes far less sense to limit something like a Pinning Shot (or Bash and Pinion, or Steel Serpent Strike, or whatever). IF you're going to limit it, I'm of the opinion that it NEEDS to make sense narratively first of all. And not in some abstract "cinematic logic" sense.

For example, a power involving aiming might require spending a round doing nothing but observing your next target. Or a power involving a precise bow trick might require unobstructed line of sight.

3. Extra Attacks could be sacrificed towards other ends. What if a fighter PC could expend some of the Extra Attack gained 5th level, 10th level, and 20th level to do something else?

That was one of my original premises when designing my version of the fighter. For example...

[SECTION]
Pinning Shot (active)
Archery talent (requires wielding a bow or crossbow)

When you use the Attack action to attack a target, you pin its limb with an arrow. The target must make a Constitution saving throw, and on a failure it reduces its speed to zero. At the end of its turns, the target can make a Constitution saving throw to restore its speed to normal. Alternately, the arrow or bolt can be ripped out as an action, restoring the target’s speed.
Recharge: Gain unobstructed line of sight to the target.
Improved Pinning Shot: In place of two attacks, you make a shot that deals an extra weapon die of damage on a hit. If the target succeeds its saving throw, it regains only half its speed; to regain the rest of its speed it must succeed another save. Ripping the arrow or bolt out causes the target to suffer 1d4 bleeding damage at the end of each of its turns until its wounds are bound or it regains hit points.
Master Pinning Shot: In place of three attacks, you make a shot that deals two extra weapon dice of damage on a hit. If the target fails its save it is restrained until it makes a successful save, whereupon it only suffers from halved speed; to regain the rest of its speed it must succeed another save. Ripping the arrow or bolt out causes the target to suffer 1d6 bleeding damage at the end of each of its turns until its wounds are bound or it regains hit points.
[/SECTION]

If you really wanted the fighter to not be DPR focused at all, you could get rid of my "extra weapon dice of damage" and boost the potency of the effect to get what you desire.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Some ideas:

Ability as a core class feature to get improved fighting styles or stances, and swap between them.

Abilities based on weapons, or features that make specific weapons or weapon groups better, similar to the weapon feats.

BM style maneuvers as a core class feature, and thus twice as much of it.

A few "free" maneuvers that are at will. Could be combined with the stance idea or improved fighting style idea. Each stance has a passive benefit and an at will maneuver you can only use while in that stance.