D&D 5E Spells cast at higher level spell slots. Worth it?

[Lidgar]

Do you really think so? Isn't it completely outclassed by scorching ray against any enemy that is not fire resistant/imune?

I wouldn't call it completely outclassed. You indirectly answered that on your comment on fire resistance; Chromatic Orb has the advantage of being able to deliver acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison or thunder damage, making it an incredibly versatile damage-dealer.

EDIT: Just read the post above from AoB, which is a far more detailed (and better) analysis.

 

[Barolo]

I think that spells have more metrics by which to measure usefulness than only comparing damage amount and type, and as a result it is not so easy to say that scorching ray completely outclasses chromatic orb.

Let's look at a few possible metrics to compare the two in detail (because I'm coming into this post without an opinion as to whether one spell outclasses the other or not).

Range: Both have enough range to cover the entire field of battle in typical encounter conditions, but scorching ray has the edge in some atypical encounter conditions.

Components: Scorching ray has the edge here too, since it doesn't require a material component of any kind.

Usability: Chromatic orb has a very slight edge here since it can be cast with any available spell slot. I say the edge is very slight because at a certain level, the damage of cantrips matches or beats the damage of a 1st-level casting of chromatic orb, and at that level other 1st-level spell options remain solidly useful (i.e. shield) so reserving 1st-level spell slots for those isn't unwise.

Versatility: Chromatic orb has the edge here, since scorching ray is only ever going to do fire damage (barring class features or feats that provide options not yet officially in the game), which might be resisted or ignored by a target, and chromatic orb has enough choices for damage type that it is unlikely to be resisted or ignored entirely by monsters that aren't resisting or ignoring all spells of level X or lower.

The Gamble: This one, I feel, is more subjective. Some people (me, for example) like the better odds of a big hit and don't mind better odds of a complete miss in trade to get it, and some people like the better odds of having some effect even if it means smaller chance at the big hits. It would take an in-depth look at the damage estimations of each spell given the actual details of enemies faced in the campaign to be sure which has an edge, so I'm comfortable calling this metric a draw.

Strategy: scorching ray has the edge again (in the general case at least), since it can be multi-target or single-target, while chromatic orb is stuck single-target only. A sorcerer with twin spell can change that a bit, especially given that a sorcerer might also add some bonus damage for choosing a particular damage type when casting chromatic orb.

So that's 3 for scorching ray, and 2 for chromatic orb with an extra nod to the spell if the character in question is a sorcerer with the right set of features. Which isn't, by my reckoning, a complete outclassing - even though it is clear that scorching ray is definitely generally more potent, which I think it should be, given that it's a higher level spell.

I wouldn't call it completely outclassed. You indirectly answered that on your comment on fire resistance; Chromatic Orb has the advantage of being able to deliver acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison or thunder damage, making it an incredibly versatile damage-dealer.

EDIT: Just read the post above from AoB, which is a far more detailed (and better) analysis.

Yes, my assessment sounded harsher than what I intended. All the above is fair and true. But..

Chromatic orb is pretty good cast at higher levels. Especially if you happen to get a crit.

I wouldn't go as far as call it "pretty good", for me it feels more of a situational/backup option.

 

[Lidgar]

Fair enough. Like some single-target spells that deal high damage at first level (Bolt of Glory being another), it can really shine with a critical hit.

In a recent session, an evil spellcaster caste chromatic orb using a sixth level slot and scored a critical against the party's sorceress. Instant death for her. While criticals don't happen often, chromatic orb and bolt of glory can be pretty nasty when using an elevated slot.

 

[Barolo]

Fair enough. Like some single-target spells that deal high damage at first level (Bolt of Glory being another), it can really shine with a critical hit.

In a recent session, an evil spellcaster caste chromatic orb using a sixth level slot and scored a critical against the party's sorceress. Instant death for her. While criticals don't happen often, chromatic orb and bolt of glory can be pretty nasty when using an elevated slot.

Oh, now I got it. 6th level chromatic orb crit is 16d8, avg 72, ouch! This is at the same ballpark of a disintegrate.

I wouldn't try it just counting on luck to get me that crit, but it suddenly gets more appealing in the hands of a diviner who just happened to roll a 20 on their portent in the morning.

 

[Lidgar]

Yeah, the Divination Wizard in the party pretty said the same after it happened. He had a new appreciation for the use of that spell using a higher level spot combined with a good portent role.

I don't think the sorceress appreciated it quite as much...

 

[Hawk Diesel]

So I found another spell that demonstrates huge discrepancies between spells that deal damage of a given spell level. Burning Hands and Fireball has been the typical example used. But let's look at Fireball versus Circle of Death.

Fireball is a 3rd level spell, 150' range, 20' blast radius, 8d6 fire damage (Dex save for half).

Circle of Death is a 6th level spell, 150' range, 60' blast radius, 8d6 necrotic damage (Con save for half), and requires an expensive material component (I'm unsure if it gets consumed by casting the spell).

Circle of Death is 3 levels higher, no increase in damage, significant increase in area of effect, but also requires a costly material component. Not only that, Fireball does 2d6 more damage than the recommended damage presented on the table in the DMG spell creation guidelines, meanwhile Circle of Death does 3d6 less damage than recommended.

Where is the consistency? How can we assume spells are balanced when there is such discrepancy? And, how can we accurately dissect spells and eyeball them well enough to judge whether a new spell/homebrew spell is balanced for its level?

Say what you want about the spellcasting in 3.5, but I felt way more confident in judging whether spells seemed appropriate for their level and new homebrew spells were balanced against their peers.

 

[clearstream]

So I found another spell that demonstrates huge discrepancies between spells that deal damage of a given spell level. Burning Hands and Fireball has been the typical example used. But let's look at Fireball versus Circle of Death.

That's a good spot and gives more insight into implicit costs. Fireball scales from 8d6 at 3rd to 14d6 at 9th. Circle scales from 8d6 at 6th to 14d6 at 9th. The area Circle covers is 10x larger. They seem to be putting a premium on Circle at 6th for its AoE and then saying that the value of 7th, 8th and 9th slots is such that they can mitigate it. At 9th Fireball remains competitive but sometimes Circle will be better. It's got a more strategic than skirmish feel to it.

EDIT For me the above suggests better not worse balance. Circle had to pay something for massively larger area.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I understand that, and I'm on board given how it scales and the size of the area. Still though, following that logic in reverse, wouldn't Burning Hands be competitive damage wise with Fireball, with the area and range being the primary difference?

 

[clearstream]

I understand that, and I'm on board given how it scales and the size of the area. Still though, following that logic in reverse, wouldn't Burning Hands be competitive damage wise with Fireball, with the area and range being the primary difference?

It would make sense to me if power balancing was anchored on 3rd level spell slots. Possibly even the damage of archetypal spells like Fireball was chosen first and then all other spells offset from that. Burning Hands then speaks to what a 1st level casting slot is worth.

I feel like the balancing is coherent even though I can see that it has features that are vexing for specific classes.

 

[raleel]

Abi-dalzim's horrid wilting also maps pretty well. 30' cube is smaller than a 20' radius sphere, but the damage on 10d8 vs 13d6 is close. Abi's can't scale, but it doesn't really have anywhere to go. The volume difference could be fixed with Abi's being a 35' cube, but that would be weird. It also incorporates its own "vulnerable" for some special cases.

Vitriolic sphere is interesting because of its time delay. At lower (4-5) levels, it is better than fireball on a failed save, but is worse pretty markedly on a successful one - fireball is right in the middle. As it gets up to 7th level, it is wholly better, matching on successful saves, and adding a bit of extra (a stable 5d4) on failed saves. This static factor isn't probably a huge issue at these levels, however, and the scaling seems to be an artifact of the die size.