Question about a Druid feat

[Greenfield]

Any opinions on the Greenbound Summoning feat?

The feat can be taken by anyone who can cast Summon Nature's Ally, and has the effect of adding the Greenbound template to all creatures summoned through that spell.

Link -> http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/greenbound.shtml

Short form: It adds to creature stats, grants them spell like abilities, DR, elemental resistance, +6 to AC, fast heal 3, grapple bonus of +4, and Tremorsense. Also a +16 to Hide checks in forested areas.

Book says this is a +2 CR adjustment, or a +8 ECL if it's a character.

Looks more than a little broken to me, just wondering if I'm missing something, or there are balancing considerations I'm not seeing.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Yes, it's broken, but a lot of stuff in third edition is broken. It's not significantly more broken than divine metamagic.

The degree to which it is better than Augment Summoning is pretty notable, but then again, those bonuses should also stack.

 

[Imaculata]

I don't think you're missing anything. It is way overpowered. There's not even any mention of the creature receiving plant-specific weaknesses, such as a weakness to fire. But even if it did include this weakness, it would still be pretty absurd. In fact, to balance this I think the creatures that can be summoned should be limited as well, and maybe it should be a ritual that takes at least a full day.

 

[Celebrim]

I wouldn't allow it.

a) Summoning is already both a powerful (and for game reasons, irritating, because it increases the complexity of combat) strategy that doesn't need big boosts. To the extent that it needs support to open up its viability, this isn't it.

b) Bumping up the CR of the summoned creature by 2 is like casting 5th level spells in a 3rd level slot. In particular though, because summoned creatures are often used as much for utility as combat, you really have to consider their LA as much as their CR. And the LA of the Greenbound template is +8. Yes, +8. You take this at first level, and you get a creature that is immune to most physical attacks, has fast healing 3, has +3 to hit and damage, has energy resistance, has +4 to grapple checks, and on and on and on. Do you even need a party? Like maybe if it was a metamagic feat that if applied increased the spell level by 2, this might be reasonable.

c) Druids in particular are already - as a tier 1 class - broken right out of the box in 3.5. Anything that increases the power of a druid is therefore also broken by default. In fact, Druid is so broken in 3.5 that I personally found no way to balance it, and threw the class out of my homebrew for violating Celebrim's 1st law of RPGs - "Thou shalt not be good at everything." Druids don't need the help.

 

[TwoSix]

Greenbound Summoning was always considered a broken feat back in 3e CharOp, usually suggested along the lines of "You should definitely take this if your DM actually allows it." You're not missing anything, it's one of the (many, many) reasons CoDZilla earned its moniker.

 

[Greenfield]

Summon spells are generally somewhere between "Okay" and "Useless" at lower levels. First levels casters spend a full round to get a single CR 1 critter to aid for one round. As level go up, the duration becomes more practicable.

But, as caster levels rise, the CR of the critter falls farther and farther behind, essentially limited to 1/2 the caster's level, rounded down.

Adding 2 to a summoned monster's CR ( as opposed to summoning a higher CR monster) doesn't look unreasonable, on the face of it. Kind of broken at lower levels, when a 1st level caster can call on a 3rd level animal to fight for him. Less out of hand at 2nd and 3rd level, and simply falling behind at a slower rate from then on.

Looking over the spell, and the feat and the template, I suspect that the player who pulled this on the group *didn't* look those things over very well.

That being said, the feat is considerably more powerful than other summoning-based feats like Ashbound, Spell Focus, Augment Summoning, etc.

Moreover, looking at the template, I have a hard time swallowing that as a +2 CR.

Creating a Greenbound Creature

A "greenbound creature" is an acquired template that can be added to any animal, fey, giant, humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or vermin (hereafter referred to as the base creature).

A greenbound creature uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: The creature's type changes to plant with the appropriate augmented subtype. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, base saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice: Change all current Hit Dice to d8s.

Armor Class: A greenbound creature's natural armor bonus improves by 6 over that of the base creature.

Attack: A green bound creature retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains a slam attack if it didn't already have one. If the base creature can use weapons, the greenbound creature retains this ability. A greenbound creature fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its primary natural weapons (if it has any). A greenbound creature armed with a weapon uses either its slam attack or a weapon, as it desires.

Full Attack: A greenbound creature fighting with out weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any): If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack.

Damage: A greenbound creature has a slam attack. If the base creature does not have this attack form, use the appropriate damage value from the table below according to the greenbound creature's size. A creature that has other kinds of natural weapons retains its old damage values or uses the appropriate values from the table below, whichever is better.
Size Base Damage
Fine 1
Diminutive 1d2
Tiny 1d3
Small 1d4
Medium 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
Gargantuan 2d8
Colossal 4d6

Special Attacks: A greenbound creature retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - entangle, pass without trace, speak with plants; 1/day - wall of thorns. Caster level equals greenbound creature's character level; save DC 10 + spell level + greenbound creature's Charisma modifier.

Special Qualities: A greenbound creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.

Damage Reduction (Ex): A greenbound creature has damage reduction 10/magic and slashing. A greenbound creature's natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Fast Healing (Ex): A greenbound creature heals 3 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 or fewer hit points in combat, it is slain.

Grapple Bonus (Ex): The thorny hooks on a greenbound creature's hands and feet grant it a +4 bonus on grapple checks.

Resistance to Cold and Electricity (Ex): A greenbound creature gains resistance 10 to cold and electricity.

Tremorsense (Ex): Greenbound creatures can automatically sense the location of anything within 60 feet that is in contact with the ground.

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +2, Con +4, Cha +4.

Skills: *A greenbound creature gains a +16 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks made in forested areas.

Environment: Any forests.

Organization: Same as the base creature.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +2.

Treasure: Standard

Alignment: Same as the base creature.

Advancement: By character class or as base creature.

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +8.

Reviewing the above:

1) 99% of all animals (subjects of the Nature's Ally spells) already have D8s for hit dice.
2) Adding +6 to Natural armor is a pretty hefty bump. Troglodyte has a comparable Natural armor, and is a +2 ECL, but that and the stench are about all they have.
3) The addition of a Slam attack isn't much. It's rarely an addition, in fact.
4) Spell like abilities are a thing. For a Summoned creature, the 1/day powers are essentially "At Will", since they won't be around long enough for that limit to matter.
5) DR 10/Magic and Slashing counts for more than a little.
6) Fast Heal 3 is significant, for a creature with damage reduction and a relatively high AC.
7) Grapple Bonus can be ugly, if you Summon a grapple-specialist creature. Grapple rules can be kind of broken as is.
8) 10 point Resistance to cold and electricity can be significant as well. Comparable to the Fiendish template for high Hit dice creatures. Part of a +2 CR package/template that also includes DR 10/Magic.
9) Strength +6 means +3 to Hit and Damage. Dex +2 adds another AC point. Con +4 means +2 HP per dice. On average, that turns the D8 HD to D12s (average 6.5). CHA +4 may affect some special abilities, depending on the creature. Call that one a wash.
10) Tremorsense means that opponents can't hide from Greenbound. That's pretty huge.
11) +16 on Hide checks? Again, pretty huge, almost as good as Invisibility and not subject to See Invisible or Invisibility Purge.

From what I can see, pretty much everything after about point 3, with maybe point 5 excluded, is above and beyond what a +2 CR template normally gives.

How far astray am I?

 

[Celebrim]

Summon spells are generally somewhere between "Okay" and "Useless" at lower levels. First levels casters spend a full round to get a single CR 1 critter to aid for one round. As level go up, the duration becomes more practicable.

Which is why in my game, most of the boosts related to summoning are duration related, or else give you flavor (like necromancers being able to summon undead).

But, as caster levels rise, the CR of the critter falls farther and farther behind, essentially limited to 1/2 the caster's level, rounded down.

It's possible that the feat would be somewhat balanced if it didn't show up until caster level 11th or higher, when the bump creature power was less significant and foes more likely to be able to deal with it. If this had that as a prerequisite, it would still be interesting. However, I personally feel that without metamagic, it's going to be pretty much impossible to make this feat balanced. What it gives is too broad and too useful.

Moreover, looking at the template, I have a hard time swallowing that as a +2 CR.

Brown Bear, CR 4 gains:

1) DR 10/Magic AND Slashing. That's near immunity to arrows, maces, staves and so forth. +1 CR right there.
2) Cold Resistance 10 and Electricity Resistance 10. Not bad.
3) 12 hit points, 7 AC, +3 to hit and damage. That's +1 CR right there.
4) Fast Heal 3. Because most fights are over quickly, fast heal tends not to be that important unless the EL is well above part level or the monster is a sniper. Still it's probably 3-6 more hit points before it goes down.
5) Grapple Bonus +4. Terrible against numbers, but this can lock down single foes pretty hard. Our bear now has a grapple bonus of +23.

Is our Greenbond Brown Bear reasonably CR 7? It's not out of the question, although it's on the weak side of CR 7. Compared to say a Bulette, it's a bit weak, but some parties would have a harder time dealing with its energy resistance and DR. Similar comparisons can be made to the Drider or the Dragonne. So, if it's not CR 7, it's pretty darn close.

How far astray am I?

I don't think you are.

 

[Greenfield]

CR 4 bear, +2 CR from Greenbound would make him CR 6.

Let's look at the finished Greenbound Brown Bear

Bear, Brown
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+36 (63 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 23 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +12 natural), touch 11,
flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+23
Attack: Claw +14 melee (1d8+11)
Full Attack: 2 claws +14 melee (1d8+11) and bite +9 melee (2d6+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, tremorsense, DR 10/Magic and Slashing, Fast Heal 3, Resist 10 Cold (ex), Resist Electricity 10 (ex)
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 15, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +7, Swim +12, Hide +16 (in forest or wilderness)
Feats: Endurance, Run, Track
Environment: Cold forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 6
Advancement: 7–10 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: --

Let's compare this to a 6th level Barbarian (another 6 hd brawler)

My basic rule for PC armor class is level +14 as the minimum to stand on the field. This guy is 2 points over the minimum, which means in the low-to-medium range for a front line fighter.

Hit point wise: Treating his hit dice like D12s, he should have 12 + 5x 6.5, or 44.5 plus reasonable CON. He's 18 points over that, which would be right for a 16 con. That sounds like "reasonable" to me.

Base move of 40. That sounds like a Barb.

Attack at +14 sounds like a 6th level Barb, in his dreams, with a secondary attack at +9. The extra main attack at +14 is a bonus our theoretical Barb doesn't have.

DR 10/Magic+Slash is a bonus ou theoretical Barbarian doesn't come with.

Energy Resistance 10 v Electrical is a bonus our Barb *could* have, presuming a low level ring appropriate to a level 6 character. The 10 point v Cold is a bonus harder to match.

Improved Grab is a Feat the Barbarian could have, though I think he needs Improved Unarmed Strike for the Barb to have it. Said Barb probably isn't in the +23 weight class though, unless he were Enlarged. Then he's about +21 or +22. Rage and he's in there.

Damage of D6 + 11 is sort of like D8 + 10. The Barbarian would have to Power Attack to get that damage with a long sword or axe, and if he went with a 2-handed weapon his AC would fall. Advantage to the Bear on this one.

Feats of Endurance, Run and Track for the Bear, on top of the Improved Grab and the implied Improved Unarmed Strike is way more feats than the Barbarian could have. To be fair, the Barbarian will probably have more skill points over all, so there's something of a balance there. (Okay, I lied, most of those skills won't help in combat, which is what we're looking at.) Advantage Bear

No real way to match Tremorsense for our Barbarian. It effectively negates a lot of the advantage that things like a good Hide check or Invisibility might give. There isn't a feat, skill or magic item that matches. Advantage Bear

+16 to Hide in wooded areas can be huge, but probably wouldn't come into play in the case of a Summoned creature. Call that one a wash.

Comparing Saves:
The Barb gets +5 Fort from levels, +3 from Con, for +8 total. Bear has +11. Advantage Bear
The Barb gets +2 Ref from levels, probably +2 from Dex, for +4 total. Bear has +7. Advantage, Bear
The Barb gets +2 Will from levels, maybe +1 from Wis, for +3 total. Bear has +3. Tossup.


In a straight brawl, no magic spells, no meaningful use of things like alchemical fire, cold or acid, the bear wins by virtue of damage and grapple. Kick in rage and Barbie's damage goes up, but so does the damage the Bear can deliver because of the AC loss, and since the bear has an extra attack at full bonus, the Barbarian's Rage actually favors the bear slightly.

Rarbie is going to hit about 50% of the time (calling him +11 to ht). Bear has a +14 to hit, su call that 2/3 of the time.

Round 1, Barb does D8+5 x 0.5 (50% hit rate) + D8+5 x 0.25 (25% hit rate for secondary attack. Average 7 points per round +-. At that rate the bear falls in 9 rounds.
Bear does D6+11 x 0.66 (better to-hit v similar AC) + D6+11 x 0.66 + 2D6+5 x 0.4, or about 20 points per round. At that rate the Barb falls part way through the 4th round.

Things like Cure Light potions won't help. Gain a D8+ points while taking 20 average at the same time. Cure Serious is a little light of a break even. I think we can discount any self-administered healing the Barb can do.

If the Barb Rages, his HP rise by 12, and his attack and damage each go up by 2. He's now hitting at close to the bear's level (+13 to hit v +14 for the bear). His damage per round goes up accordingly. Not enough to match the bear's, but some.

The bear, on the other hand, also starts hitting more often, about 3/4 of the time, which effectively raises his per-round damage. Because of his extra full-bonus attack, he comes out a winner on this exchange.

And we're not even considering the bear's Grapple attack, which is automatic on any claw hit. If he wins that grapple check he gets to do both claw attacks of damage automatically, for about 29 points per round until the Barb breaks the hold. Simply stated, after the initial hit, the Barb dies in about two rounds of that. Bear has about a seven point advantage in that area. Not insurmountable, but solid.

Bottom line, presuming that the Barb faces this Bear alone, has an AC in the low 20s (comparable to the bear), and has at least a +1 Sword or Axe to bypass the DR, my read of this is that the Barbarian is not eating bear steaks for dinner that night. Rather, the bear and her cubs are dining in style.

So my read is that the package, in this case, is worth more than a +2.

Give the Barb another level, meaning probably +9 HP, another point in AC, another point of BAB and maybe another plus on his weapon and the story changes. He lasts four solid rounds, presuming no Grapple, and the bear falls in 8. Same outcome, it just takes longer.

That's my run of the numbers. If I missed something, please correct me.

<Edit> I did miss something: I forgot the Fast Heal. That effectively drops the Barb's damage by 3 per round. This fight is even more one sided than i thought. </Edit>

 

[Imaculata]

The greenbound creature sounds like a CR7 or maybe even CR8 creature. The grappling bonus can completely disable single opponents entirely. And the high AC, the regeneration and the resistances make the creature extremely tough. To balance this, you would need to add several prerequisites, and bump the CR by a lot.

 

[Greenfield]

Point was settled.

The game group voted (by email), and four out of five of the "off book" feates and options the player of the Druid asked for were rejected, including the Greenbound Summoning feat.

The exchange took place over a weeks time, and I asked, repeatedly, for the player to add something, to explain or simply answer questions, but he never did.

Afterwards he said he didn't want to play with us, that he felt our style and his weren't compatible. I can't say that he's wrong.

I can say that I wish he was.