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D&D 5E What the warlord needs in 5e and how to make it happen.

Not an anthropologist, but my understanding from friends who are is that the standard anthropological definition of "sorcerer" is a human being who is believed to have sought out and mastered magical powers consciously from an external source, as opposed to a "witch" who is believed to have intrinsic or innate magic and possibly not to be human. In D&D terms, a sorcerer is a wizard and a witch is a sorcerer.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
John Carter Warlord of Mars and the Warlord from the comic book are my first two Warlord references.
Warlord67.png

Both very heroic and pretty fantastical as well. Which gives the connotations.
Those are my first Warlord baggage

More recently on the fantasy front was in Xena warrior princess. (an Ex Warlord)
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Far as I can tell, Anyone who believes that the person in question is a con man, rather than just a guy being randomly accused of witchcraft to stir up a mob, calls them a con artist, or a synonym thereof, whereas sorcerer is reserved for someone that the speaker genuinely believes is performing miracles via magic, and even that is *extremely* rare in a modern context.
Belief in the supernatural is not that rare, even today. "Sorcerer" or, I guess, Witch, as garthanos pointed out, would be a translation of whatever regional word the true-believers are using. I thought 'Sorcerer' got used more often, to avoid the whole Salem connection, but maybe it's shifted of late.

IMO, when you use the term sorcerer amongst non nerds, they think medieval/ancient miracle men/wizards, and/or someone possessed by spirits/devils, or someone who consorts with spirits/devils, and gains supernatural powers from that.
The actual definition is someone who consorts with spirits for supernatual power, which does fit the D&D Warlock, maybe some D&D versions of the Shaman, but not so much the D&D Sorcerer, who has innate magic. A point that's been brought up, also, when going on about class names.

To the larger issue, the fact that every class name is a noun with non-D&D meanings, and some of those meanings have negative connotations, does not automatically make Warlord acceptable.
It's not so negative a connotation nor so much narrower or less appropriate a meaning than the worst offenders that have been added to the game with nary a peep of objection.

And, the Warlord has been in the game, so it's been acceptable enough to see print, under the watch of a mainstream US corporation, which, though far from infallible, are sensitive to the implications of word choice, especially in products that aren't going to adult-only markets.

so clearly there is some kind of spectrum. Our opinions of which words fall at what points on that spectrum, and where the threshold of acceptability is, will vary of course.
Cleary there /is/ a spectrum, and, clearly, RPGs go further along that spectrum than many other products. 'Assassin,' for instance, someone who commits murder for hire or to advance political aims, is not exactly G-rated. Neither is 'necromancer.' But the latter hasn't raised a lot of eyebrows, and the former hasn't been controversial for a long time (and the controversey in the community back then was more along the lines of 'Assassins shouldn't have to be evil, James Bond isn't evil' or 'a wizard could kill for money, pretty effectively, too' not, 'XOMG, we can't have gamers calling their characters assassins').

There is, of course, no accounting for taste or justifying opinions, but I'd think, looking at it with whatever dispassion we can muster, it's pretty clear that Warlord, on balance, is closer to the 'safe' side of the spectrum than some of the names already being used in D&D, with little or no objection whatsoever. There are both negative and heroic uses of it. Heroes in genre get called 'warlord' - villains in genre get called 'warlord.' In S&S, the hero is usually holding the sword, and the Sorcerer is generally the villain. The D&D Warlock doesn't just have a name with a bad connotation because the common usage has been a sort of satanist, but because the D&D Warlock does make pacts with Infernal powers.

So, yes, there's a spectrum, and D&D uses a fairly generous portion of that spectrum within which the Warlord fits comfortably.

So the name objection is spurious.

There are a lot of reasons for tossing out the same spurious objection over and over, but one of them is having reason to believe your actual, more legitimate objections might not be heard fairly or might be used to paint you in a bad light.

I can think of one legitimate concern you've expressed before, the fraught issue of using CHA-based/social-abilities on other players, and I'd rather explore it in laborious detail than go on pointlessly about the name...


...unless someone comes up with a /much/ better name, that's more genre-appropriate and evocative and capture more of the range of the class.
Because, seriously, we brainstormed a ton of 'em, here, and they were mostly military ranks, and nothing stood out as even close to as good as Warlord.
 
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G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Actually, my biggest name objection is not that modern warlords are unfriendly guys, but that "Warlord" is more of a rank than a profession.

A possible test of class names should be whether they still make sense with the word 'novice' stuck in front of them. Novice assassin: check. Novice wizard: check. Novice warrior: check.

Novice barbarian? Not so much (but I think many of us agree that "barbarian" was never a good class name to start with because it's really more of a background than a class.)

"Novice warlord"? I think not.

As many have pointed out, "Warlord" is of a kind with "Archmage", "Grandmaster", etc. It's earned, not chosen.

My second biggest objection is that "warlord" suggests having command over others, which is of course my biggest objection to the class itself (as described/fluffed by most of its proponents).
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
By the way, somewhere in this thread somebody (Aldarc?) asked me why I think some people are so keen...bordering on zealotry...on getting the warlord. I think maybe I should add one theory to that list: that it has become the symbol for whether or not WotC was serious about trying to bring together fans of all editions. That the "Warlord"...as a base class with that name that includes a list of non-negotiable features...is the one and only thing that will prove that 4e fans are welcome in the tent, and that it's absence is proof of their duplicity.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Actually, my biggest name objection is that "Warlord" is more of a rank than a profession.
It's less a rank than alternatives like the Marshal or SWSE Noble, which connote more legitimate positions of power, as well.

"Novice warlord"? I think not.
A number of classes connote a high level of accomplishment or respect. Bard, Druid, and Wizard, for instance, Paladin, too if you're familiar with it's original meaning. 'Novice' does sound silly, but 'upstart' fits for an inexperienced Warlord. Warlords tend to emerge rather suddenly, too, and have meteoric careers, which fits the typical D&D character story arc better than the decades of seclusion of study suggested by Wizard or Monk.

My second biggest objection is that "warlord" suggests having command over others, which is of course my biggest objection to the class itself (as described/fluffed by most of its proponents).
That was a problem with 'Leader' as the label for the support role, too. I suppose they felt a need to puff it up a little to make up for the long-held negative stereotype of the 'band-aid' cleric as needed only for that role. I think it's just important to be clear what even a warlord who's concept /is/ a commander of some sort will actually be doing for the party, and that it needn't imply party leadership, and would never amount to telling other players what to do or how to play their characters.


"Warlord"...as a base class with that name that includes a list of non-negotiable features...
I feel like the name was negotiable, in the playtest: If there'd been a decent full class Warlord under the name 'Marshal' or something in the 5e PH, it'd've been seen as a compromise, and a largely symbolic one, really, between the 4vengers and h4ters.

There were clear compromises in the PH. Take Feats & 3e-style MCing. They were a similar point of contention, and they were made optional, but put in the PH. That's two sides meeting half way.

More generally, a compromise between, wanting something to be made universally available, and wanting to deprive everyone of that same something forever, may sounds hard, but, really, the half-way meeting point is kinda obvious: you make it an option, open to everyone, but which no one need use if they don't want to.

If the Warlord had gone into an optional-class appendix of the PH, and every been as optional as feats (maybe because it was designed to make heavy use of them or something?), that'd've been a compromise, too. But those are off the table. Over 2 years in and the Warlord's not even in the pipeline, that's not meeting half-way, even if an eventual Warlord is everything the fans want (or, worse, the horrific nightmare-vision you articulated of it), out-years-into-the-run is meeting you more than half way.

Accepting an optional Warlord class in a still-hypothetical mid-edition supplement of some kind, that's Warlord fans meeting you 75% of the way.
I suspect, if by some miracle it happens, few detractors would nerd-rage-quit over it, and most would reluctantly go the 25% or less asked of them.

I think maybe I should add one theory to that list: that it has become the symbol for whether or not WotC was serious about trying to bring together fans of all editions.
That's certainly one of my reasons, and you needn't call it a theory, I've come right out and said it. The Warlord has become a symbol, that way. Also why I'm supportive of the Mystic (and critical of certain thing's it's not doing), even though through most of my history with D&D I actively disliked psionics.
... But it's also more than merely symbolic (important as symbolism may when healing a rift in a community), there's also the closely related goal of supporting playstyles. 4e opened up fairly seamlessly some styles of campaign (and even just party compositions) that were impractical and/or required extensive house-ruling/DM-intervention to do in the past, and the diversity of classes in each Role, and the Warlord, in particular, was an important part of that. The traditionally vital, long niche-protected, cleric 'healer' role was expanded on as the formal Leader Role, and each Source could fill it adequately, so no one was obliged to play a 'Divine' PC if they didn't want to, for instance. 5e has actually kept several different casters as strong 'support' classes (and just added a psionic sub-class), it's only neglected viable non-magical support options.

...

More personally, I was also just really pleased with the character concepts that you could do, well and fully-contributing to the success of the party, with the Warlord that you could barely even suggest in prior editions, and would like to be able to do similar concepts at least as well in 5e - and hope to see the breadth of viable concepts continue to expand with new/unique stuff, as well. I've also felt that same way about the concepts that were enabled by 3.x fighter & sorcerer, and been vocal about that not just in 5e, but, in the case of the fighter, all through 4e, which never delivered on that score. I'd also, from the other side of the screen, like to see PrCs become available again in 5e, because they were a major 3e innovation that 4e did in an anemic way (Paragon Paths), and they have a lot of potential as a DM tool for world-building and getting player buy-in/PC-connection to the imagined world. I could go on...
 
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By the way, somewhere in this thread somebody (Aldarc?) asked me why I think some people are so keen...bordering on zealotry...on getting the warlord. I think maybe I should add one theory to that list: that it has become the symbol for whether or not WotC was serious about trying to bring together fans of all editions. That the "Warlord"...as a base class with that name that includes a list of non-negotiable features...is the one and only thing that will prove that 4e fans are welcome in the tent, and that it's absence is proof of their duplicity.

non-negotiable features and welcome don't fit well togheter in a diplomatic process..
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I've also felt that same way about the concepts that were enabled by 3.x fighter & sorcerer, and been vocal about that not just in 5e, but, in the case of the fighter, all through 4e, which never delivered on that score.

And as you have said there are actually improvements on the 4e Warlord that are not even in that list from Wrecan posted early this thread, Warlords not only induce openings for their allies and inspire them they manipulate the enemy. (in 4e terms they ought to have controller role abilities)
 


Lanliss

Explorer
Can I just comment that some of the new psionic discipline fit damn well for a warlord.
Especially mantle of command, courage and fury.

that discussion already happened. Those, and the Avatar, are apparently a different Leader class called an Ardent, which was basically a Psionic Warlord as far as I can tell.
 

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