D&D 5E What the warlord needs in 5e and how to make it happen.

Hussar

Legend
I love the name warlord. I hope they keep it if they bring in a warlord class. Not something I think will happen at this point, but if it does show as a full class, I hope they keep it.

Another possible option, that I personally really like, is Myrmidon. Granted, I just looked up the dictionary definition, and it's not particularly good ("a follower or subordinate of a powerful person, typically one who is unscrupulous or carries out orders unquestioningly.") but, in my mind, it's sufficiently removed from common usage that it really doesn't carry a whole lot of connotative baggage. And, I'll note that Primeval Thule uses Myrmidon as a background with leadery/warlordy benefits, so, I don't think I'm alone in this. It's kind of like Paladin in that sense. Sure, by the dictionary, it's probably not the best name, but, again, it's so esoteric that most people probably aren't even aware or are only tangentially aware, of the root of the name.

I do remember the long threads about second wind during play test....

True. But, let's be honest, once the rubber met the road, all those complaints largely died.

In fact we have all mechanics to create a Warlord.
But in 5 ed classes are not stuck in one role. Warlord fans seem to insist on the 4ed leader role.
A 5ed Warlord should be able to be more support or more damage dealer on demand.
Much like paladin who can prepare and cast support spells or use smite.
By building a class mainly based on class feature, and not spells ( or discipline) you can greatly reduce its versatility.
In a fantasy world a warlord can't be only a corner coach, He should be able to shine as a solo warrior.

Fair enough. And, to be honest, that was true in 4e as well. You could certainly build a warlord in 4e that was much more than a corner coach and, in fact, that was probably the most common, and certainly easiest path, way to create a warlord. Tons of warlord effects were based on the warlord smacking someone first and then bringing someone in to finish the job. A low level example would be Hammer and Anvil - warlord smacks baddy and adjacent ally gets a free shot too. Pretty much every level of power options for a warlord had something along those lines. So, yeah, a warlord being able to shine as a solo warrior? Well, not so much. It's no different than a rogue or a bard in that sense. A lone rogue loses pretty much all of his offensive power - it's very difficult for a solo rogue to sneak attack. A lone bard isn't exactly rocking anyone's world in combat and is really meant to be part of a group.

But, at any rate, I look at the Order of the Avatar mystic as a proof of concept. Will D&D fans be happy with adding leader style mechanics to the game? So far anyway, I'd say that the answer is a resounding yes. No one seems particularly bent out of shape by the Avatar mystic. I've yet to see any real complaint about the mechanics. And, previous attempts have largely been seen positively too - Mastermind Rogue, Purple Dragon Knight, Battlemaster have all slipped in under the radar and been accepted into the game.

What we're seeing, in my opinion, is how masterfully WotC has managed the fanbase this time around. They have managed to slip in all sorts of elements incrementally and then sat back until those elements are no longer objectionable. Many of the elements that were incredibly hot button issues and, in fact, non starters in 4e, have managed to slide into 5e and become acceptable.

Give it another iteration of some other option that adds yet more leadery elements to the game and we'll likely see a warlord come down the pipe. The next proof of concept iteration will likely blur the line between supernatural and mundane to a large degree. Kind of like how bardic inspiration is currently unclear as to whether it's a supernatural effect or not. The next "leader" set of mechanics will look a lot like the Order of the Avatar mystic, but, possibly using something like ancient knowledge (a la monk training) to create effects. Not specifically supernatural but, esoteric enough that it satisfies both the non-supernatural crowd will leaving more than enough wiggle room for interpretation that the "building a class mainly based on class feature, and not spells ( or discipline) you can greatly reduce its versatility" crowd is happy too.

I gotta give WotC some HUGE kudos this time around. They learned the lessons of the 4e release and Paizo's approaches to fandom and have really done a masterful job of it.
 

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Lanliss

Explorer
Could you please explain to me how these two arguments can co-exist?

"The Mystic doesn't replace the Warlord because it's still supernatural and the Warlord has to be non-supernatural."

and

"If people are ok with the Mystic then they have no argument against the Warlord because they're the same thing."

The first argument is saying that the fluff absolutely matters, and the second is saying that the fluff doesn't matter.

A section of the argument against Warlord is that the abilities (action granting, extra movement off turn, etc) would be overpowered. The fact that the Avatar is able to do those things means it is not overpowered, so that section of the argument could be shut down.

A section of the argument FOR warlords is that it must be non-magical, 100% martial, by force of raw strength/charisma and nothing else. The fact that Avatar uses "psionics" instead of "Martial power" means it cannot possibly be a warlord. Notable towards this is the discussion on whether Psionics and Magic are the same thing, in which several people agree they should be treated the same in regards to dispel/anti magic spells. (some)People wanting the warlord want it to be immune to such interference, and thus, Psionics cannot work for the Warlord.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Warlords tend to emerge rather suddenly, too, and have meteoric careers, which fits the typical D&D character story arc better than the decades of seclusion of study suggested by Wizard or Monk.
Historic ones seem to be a yes on that front, young tactical geniuses... may just be the ones we hear about more though.
 

Another possible option, that I personally really like, is Myrmidon. Granted, I just looked up the dictionary definition, and it's not particularly good ("a follower or subordinate of a powerful person, typically one who is unscrupulous or carries out orders unquestioningly.") but, in my mind, it's sufficiently removed from common usage that it really doesn't carry a whole lot of connotative baggage. And, I'll note that Primeval Thule uses Myrmidon as a background with leadery/warlordy benefits, so, I don't think I'm alone in this. It's kind of like Paladin in that sense. Sure, by the dictionary, it's probably not the best name, but, again, it's so esoteric that most people probably aren't even aware or are only tangentially aware, of the root of the name.
Are you sure? I suspect D&D players tend towards being mythology buffs enough for at least a substantial minority of them to be at least peripherally aware that the Myrmidons have something to do with Achilles and ants.

Also, I'm already using the word for a homebrewed race of, well, antlike warriors, so hard pass from me personally on those grounds.

And how is "paladin" a comparably poor name? True, the Peers of Charlemagne didn't do much supernatural healing or thunderous smiting, but other than the difference in magic level the connotation of "chivalrous, loyal, and pure knight" seems to fit like a glove.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
A section of the argument against Warlord is that the abilities (action granting, extra movement off turn, etc) would be overpowered. The fact that the Avatar is able to do those things means it is not overpowered, so that section of the argument could be shut down.

Sure. Not relevant to my question, though.

A section of the argument FOR warlords is that it must be non-magical, 100% martial, by force of raw strength/charisma and nothing else. The fact that Avatar uses "psionics" instead of "Martial power" means it cannot possibly be a warlord. Notable towards this is the discussion on whether Psionics and Magic are the same thing, in which several people agree they should be treated the same in regards to dispel/anti magic spells. (some)People wanting the warlord want it to be immune to such interference, and thus, Psionics cannot work for the Warlord.

Yup. That's one of the two arguments/assertions that I'm asking about.

How does that reconcile with "anybody who is ok with Avatar has to be ok with the Warlord"? If the fluff matters, the fluff matters, right?
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Another possible option, that I personally really like, is Myrmidon. Granted, I just looked up the dictionary definition, and it's not particularly good ("a follower or subordinate of a powerful person, typically one who is unscrupulous or carries out orders unquestioningly.") but, in my mind, it's sufficiently removed from common usage that it really doesn't carry a whole lot of connotative baggage. And, I'll note that Primeval Thule uses Myrmidon as a background with leadery/warlordy benefits, so, I don't think I'm alone in this. It's kind of like Paladin in that sense. Sure, by the dictionary, it's probably not the best name, but, again, it's so esoteric that most people probably aren't even aware or are only tangentially aware, of the root of the name.

Myrmidon gets my nod. Ask most people on the street what it means and they'll have no idea. In 10 years the answer might be, "It's a Dungeons & Dragons thing, right?" Victory.
 

Lanliss

Explorer
Sure. Not relevant to my question, though.



Yup. That's one of the two arguments/assertions that I'm asking about.

How does that reconcile with "anybody who is ok with Avatar has to be ok with the Warlord"? If the fluff matters, the fluff matters, right?

I would argue that abilities being able to get dispelled vs. not get dispelled/ended-in-anti-magic-field is a mechanic, not just fluff. I am not personally part of the Warlord argument, just an observer, so this is the best I understand it looking from the outside.

If someone is ok with the principle of the Avatar, (gifting actions etc.), then they cannot say it would be overpowered for the Warlord to do that too. However, the Avatar is not what the Warlord fans want, as it may not be immune to things that cancel magic. They want a Charisma powered tactician, using pure martial prowess, not an intelligence powered mind-controller using mind-powers.

I think the best way to put it is, the first part you are questioning ("If they are ok with Avatar, they must be ok with Warlord") is not a fluff matter, it is a mechanics matter, unless people are only ok with it because it is fluffed as mind-control. If they are ok with the mechanics existing, they should be ok with them existing in a different package (is the argument as I read it). The second question is fluff, so the first matter has no bearing on it, since they are in different categories.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
I would argue that abilities being able to get dispelled vs. not get dispelled/ended-in-anti-magic-field is a mechanic, not just fluff. I am not personally part of the Warlord argument, just an observer, so this is the best I understand it looking from the outside.

If someone is ok with the principle of the Avatar, (gifting actions etc.), then they cannot say it would be overpowered for the Warlord to do that too. However, the Avatar is not what the Warlord fans want, as it may not be immune to things that cancel magic. They want a Charisma powered tactician, using pure martial prowess, not an intelligence powered mind-controller using mind-powers.

I think the best way to put it is, the first part you are questioning ("If they are ok with Avatar, they must be ok with Warlord") is not a fluff matter, it is a mechanics matter, unless people are only ok with it because it is fluffed as mind-control. If they are ok with the mechanics existing, they should be ok with them existing in a different package (is the argument as I read it). The second question is fluff, so the first matter has no bearing on it, since they are in different categories.

Ah, got it.

Yes, some people do seem opposed to some of the mechanics.

However, my opposition is specifically because of the fluff. I'm ok with "you are healed because...well, it's magic". What I'm not ok with is "you are healed because your character find's somebody else's character to be inspiring". The latter is telling me what my character thinks.

So mechanics that I'm willing to accept from an Avatar or a Cleric or a Bard are not necessarily mechanics I'm willing to accept from a character whose fluff is "other people look up to your natural leadership and general all-around awesomeness".

A common response to that is, "It's just fluff...ignore it." But then when I say, "Well, the Cleric and the Bard also have fluff...why can't you ignore that?" all of the sudden the fluff becomes really important. I'm not saying my position conclusively demonstrates that the Warlord shouldn't exist, just that the validity of my position is equal to the validity of the pro-Warlord position.

And the Dispel Magic argument is just a distraction. Sure, that's a real mechanical effect, but it's an edge case. Almost all of the abilities I see proposed, and the ones most argued about, wouldn't be subject to Dispel Magic anyway. (And if there were an exception, and immunity to Dispel Magic really made that much of a difference, I would posit that that only demonstrates the need to make sure it's somehow dispellable.)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Are you sure? I suspect D&D players tend towards being mythology buffs enough for at least a substantial minority of them to be at least peripherally aware that the Myrmidons have something to do with Achilles and ants.

Makes me think of heavily armored types engaged in formation fighting perhaps spear wielding.
 

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