D&D 5E 5e Warlord Demand Poll

How much demand is there for a dedicated warlord class??

  • I am a player/DM of 5e and would like a dedicated warlord class

    Votes: 61 26.3%
  • I am a player/DM of 4e and would like a dedicated warlord class

    Votes: 2 0.9%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and am satisfied with WotC's current offerings for a warlord-esque class

    Votes: 67 28.9%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and am satisfied with the current 3rd party offerings for a warlord class

    Votes: 6 2.6%
  • I am a player/DM of 5e and I don't care whether WotC designs a warlord class for 5e

    Votes: 94 40.5%
  • I am a player/DM of 4e and I don't care whether WotC designs a warlord class for 5e

    Votes: 2 0.9%

  • Poll closed .
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Sacrosanct

Legend
Abstract arguments about shadow ninjas vs purple warlords don't look that productive to me.

Isn't the question - (a) what might a ninja do, and how far short of that does some sort of Shadow Monk and/or Assassin build fall short?

And then - (b) what might a warlord do, and how far short of that does some sort of Banneret and/or Battle Master and/or Mastermind build fall short? (I'm discounting clerics and bards on the grounds that, as maximal casters, they are obviously inadequate as warlord substitutes.)

I'll leave others to answer (a), though my gut feeling is - not very far short. As far as (b) is concerned, though, the answer is - quite a bit, because all the warlord-y stuff has been watered down so as to not unbalance a class chassis that is primarily based around damage dealing rather than support.

The problem with this, as I mentioned a few times in these threads, is that there is no consensus as to what the warlord should actually do, and how close 5e comes to that. It's all personal opinion. So why your gut feeling is that "b" is quite a bit and "a" is not very much, we have a range of opinions from people who think "b" is "totally fine and you can replicate everything" all the way to "it doesn't cover anything." I.e., I could literally say the opposite, and that "a" is very much, and "b" isn't a gap at all, and we're both just giving our opinions of our expectations.

Thus, that question isn't very productive either.

It is literally quite this simple, because the argument is literally the same between a and b: "Can I replicate the features I like from a class in 5e?" Everything else is subjective opinion on how close you can do that. So saying that you shouldn't tell someone they can do "X, Y, and Z options from the book to get close to the class" that does you want while telling someone else that they should do X, Y, and Z options from the book to get close to what they class they want, is contradictory in the best case, outright hypocritical in the worst case.

So unless you can get a consensus from everyone as to what the warlord can and should do, and a consensus of what a ninja can and should do, then your question is also non productive. What you're saying, and what manbearcat said above, boils down to, "My opinion is more important than your opinion, so you should do the thing I'm telling other people not to tell me."


Note: this is true of any class, obviously.
 

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Aldarc

Legend
From what I have seen people say, the two fighters are two sides to the same Warlord shaped coin. One grants attacks (Like a warlord can), and the other buffs people in a radius, without magic (Like a warlord can). My guess is, WoTC made BM to fill a little of the Warlord Niche, and people didn't see the warlord at all. So, WoTC made PDK in response to what those people said they wanted out of a Warlord. Almost like the Ranger-Revised, they failed in their original swing, so they pulled a different approach in the hopes it would work better.
Of course, one of the glaring problems with that two-sides of the same coin approach is that only one side of the coin can face up: i.e., one can't be both a Battlemaster and a Banneret. The choices are mutually exclusive.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
In my own attempt to rewrite the core classes for greater consistency (I'm sure that I'm not the only one taking up that project), I do have Paladin as a subclass of Fighter, alongside another subclass which is essentially a cross between the champion and battlemaster. Their unified chassis includes fighting styles, second wind, extra attacks, and action surge. The subclass-level difference between them is that the Paladin gains access to some spells and auras, while the other subclass gains additional fighting styles and a kind of battle-focus ability that grants them advantage on attack rolls for a round.

I have Ranger as one of the subclasses of Rogue, using a unified chassis that focuses on skills and something like sneak attack. (Incidentally, one of the other Rogue subclasses is Ninja.)

That definately sounds, to me, like the Paladin and Championmaster are too similar. If I have to have classes in subclass form, I'd roll cleric into Magic User before I'd roll Paladin into anything. IMO, it's not going to play as a Paladin unless it's got a pretty hefty suite of its own abilities, and I see absolutely nothing in the class I'd be willing to lose in order to get Second Wind or Action Surge.

i like that you at least have the good sense to put Ranger under rogue instead of fighter, though. :D

Also, and this is nothing to do with you, Second Wind and Action Surge are two of the worst class features in the game, imo. Not in terms of efficacy or any of that, but in terms of being distinct. They add literally nothing of value to the goal of realizing a concept using mechanical elements. They are features of a game, not features of a class. They were very obviously put into the fighter to try to make he fighter arbitrarily "unique", but are so generic that all they do is make the fighter bland. Were I to actually sit down, take a break from my other projects, and rewrite the 5e classes, those features would be made general features of the game, and the various Fighter subclasses would be broken into 2-3 classes, with a lot of parts cannabalised, and something like Improved Fighting Styles, and Weapon Expertise.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
OD&D had three classes: Fighting Man, Magic User, and Cleric. Are you saying you wouldn't play it because it has too few classes, even with a great DM?
Personally, I'd be happy with a version of D&D with just 3 classes - 3 very flexible classes that could be mixxed & matched to build anything I could dream up, that is. But, that's not what the 3-class system of pre-Greyhawk 0e was, and, besides, I started with 1e, so 0e doesn't have the nostalgia hit for me, and I wouldn't play it again on a bet (well, maybe a modest bet), it's just too primitive to bother with.

Classes change across editions. We all know this and accept it. A 1e barbarian looks nothing like a 5e barbarian which is based off the 3e barbarian. A 1e paladin and a 5e paladin aren't even in the same ballpark. And let's not even start with the 1e bard. :D Classes across editions are different.
Sure, but 5e is unique in wanting to give fans of each past edition a fair shake. The 5e Druid isn't exactly the 3e coDzilla or the 0e/1e original, but it covers the bases pretty well, without being as broken or inconsistent as either (and, seriously, capturing the full range of the 1e Druid while avoiding even some of its inconsistencies is amazing design work), it's not a half-measures (really 1/3rd or 1/4 measures) Druid like the one in the 4e PH2, or a Cleric-worked-over-as-a-Druid like the 2e PH1 (elegant as 2e Clerics got once the CPH was out).

5e doesn't need to - and shouldn't - just port a past edition incarnation of a class, it just wouldn't work. A direct port of the Warlord, for instance, would be startlingly under-powered in a lot of ways, particularly as a viable substitute for a caster support class (those classes being much-expanded in 5e relative to 4e; cf Druid rave, above).

But, all that being said, in 5e, there IS a ninja class. It's the Way of Shadow monk. It's right there in the description of the class. Now, it's not the same as a 1e ninja, that's true.
To be fair, that's not entirely fair. A name drop is not the same as a class by the same name, not emotionally, and not when it comes to delivering on the spirit of inclusiveness. The ninja's fairly obscure, a late-ed addition or PrC or the like in each ed, but it deserves more than a name drop. IMHO, it deserves a PrC tied to some very Japanese-flavored setting. One that I can neatly avoid ever running. ;) (And, really, even if I did, I'd find a reason to ban it, because, like Sacrosanct, I'm a child of the 80s, and, unlike him, that means I'm fed-up with ninjas and never need to see another one. That's the wonder of optional material, I can stand up for Sacrosanct's right to want a ninja, and do nothing to obstruct whatever campaign he comes up with to try and get one (and it should be half the top 10 threads in no time, since he's so certain it's so much cooler and more popular than the Warlord), while never being assailed by the black-pajama set, myself.)

So, no, there isn't an equivalency here. You HAVE a ninja class. Right there in the PHB. It's even CALLED a ninja.
Nope, sorry, it's a sub-class, it's called a Monk. "It might also be called a ninja," sure. It might also be called a shinobi, a stealer-in, a special ops silent-kill specialist, or a Mimbari Ranger.

It's not the name-drop, it's the functionality that makes the difference in this case. You can do all the ninja-y things - thanks in large part to ninjas being a little bit magical and magic being rather enormously privileged in 5e designs to date. If you want a non-mystical ninja, you'd have to settle for a mere Assassin, and, while he might be stealthy, deadly, and a master of disguise, it might not quite cover everything past ninjas did to their fans' collective satisfaction.

this suggests that the Battlemaster is something other than 5E's Warlord. If not and both are meant to be Warlords, then WotC has essentially given Fighters two redundant subclasses meant to fill the same niche, archetype, and aesthetic: i.e. the Warlord.
The dropping of 'warlord' in the PDK entry looks almost like a fruedian slip or editing error. ;)

The provenance of the Battlemaster, however, is crystal clear: it started in the playtest as the Weaponmaster sub-class of Fighter, re-cycling the not at all apt name pasted collectively on all the non-Knight/Slayer builds of fighter that preceded HotFL. When it was pointed out that even in it's downgraded state, it was still more than a /weapon/ master, it was re-named /battle/master.
 
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Hussar

Legend
Just out of curiosity, what is missing from a non-magical ninja in the assassin class? Surely it's just a matter of equipment, no?

But, fair enough. I'm not particularly interested in a ninja class, so, I've never really given it any thought. Just some knee jerk reactions. It seems to me, from a very quick reading that a Shadow Monk fits the magic ninja pretty well and an assassin covers the non-magical one. What's missing?

And that's the crux right there. I can pretty easily say what's missing from a Battlemaster if you want to make a warlord. Or a PDK. There's a rather large swath of elements missing to be honest and they've been enumerated numerous times.
 


Corwin

Explorer
And that's the crux right there. I can pretty easily say what's missing from a Battlemaster if you want to make a warlord.
No you can't. At least not to anyone but yourself. You can't possibly dictate "what's missing" for others.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
No you can't. At least not to anyone but yourself. You can't possibly dictate "what's missing" for others.

That seems to be the big disconnect in all of these threads. It is objective fact that everyone has a different idea as to what a warlord should look like. We see it in the posts, and we see it with all of the variations of the many warlord classes and subclasses people have created.

Therefore, it is impossible for anyone to say they can say exactly what is missing from what is published and present that as objective fact. It's solely on opinion and personal preferences. Hence my earlier comment about "my opinion is more important than your opinion", because that's what it boils down to. There definitely seems to be a double standard from some people here.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Are you trying to pass off opinion as fact here? Hope not...
I think "should" implies opinion or at least judgement in that context.
No you can't. At least not to anyone but yourself. You can't possibly dictate "what's missing" for others.
Now you may be inadvertently dismissing fact as opinion, it seems. (And Hussar, bless him, clearly has some deeply-felt opinions that are obviously shading his presentation of the facts.)

But, fact is, the BM has ~16 maneuvers, one of which bears the name of a Warlord at-will, but is short-rest recharge, a few of which map roughly to Warlord encounters, and the rest of which map better to 4e fighter tricks. The Warlord had it's Command Presence range of features and hundreds of 'maneuvers' (called 'exploits' in 4e), that the BM doesn't even begin to cover. That's fact. Hard numbers, not Hussar's opinion.

Whether and how you might think those numbers should be massaged and compared 'fairly' is a matter of opinion, but that the quantitative gulf between them is about two orders of magnitude is objective fact.

That seems to be the big disconnect in all of these threads. It is objective fact that everyone has a different idea as to what a warlord should look like. We see it in the posts, and we see it with all of the variations of the many warlord classes and subclasses people have created.
So what? Does anyone really have an idea what the Ranger should be? We've had multiple stabs at it, and it still seems murky. Doesn't mean it should never have been given a chance.

Therefore, it is impossible for anyone to say they can say exactly what is missing from what is published and present that as objective fact.
Actually, it's straightforward enough to see what's objectively missing from the current published options, since they are objectively there, in black and white in the PH & SCAG, covering 3 whole relatively feature-poor 'archetype' subclasses and a couple of feats, and the Warlord is objectively in the cannon in black & white, covering 6 official builds, the odd variation, and the CharOp lazy build, among other things, spread out over the PH1, MP, MP2 and the occasional dragon article, around a dozen class features, hundreds of powers & feats, and no small number of related Paragon Paths and even a few appropriate epic destinies & themes.

The sheer, objective, volume of what's 'missing' from the 5e not-Warlord is absolutely overwhelming.

BTW, to be fair, there's also the matter of what any one Warlord might be able to do. In 4e, the Warlord had hundreds of powers, for instance, so there were literally tens of thousands of possible, distinct, individual warlords, without even considering MCing, Feats, Paragon Paths, Themes, Backgrounds or Epic Destinies. In 5e, before considering the corresponding options of MCing, feats, & Backgrounds, there are exactly 3 (Any BM trying to play at being a Warlord will eventually choose all the Warlord-applicable maneuvers, the PDK & Mm have their warlord-ish features locked in, no choice involved).

But IMHO, it's not actually quite as bad as it looks on the surface: the same can be said for any 5e class, to a lesser extent. Even though there are hundreds of spells in 5e, each 5e full caster has only a relatively small sub-set of them that are unique to itself, and can, over 20 levels, learn most of them, meaning that they are defined mainly, as individuals, by the unique class spells they /don't/ know. Between sub-classes and unique spell choices, that's still scores if not hundreds of possible individual casters of each class (with the exception of the Sorcerer, with no unique spells and only 2 sub-classes + meta-magic choices for differentiation, of course)

Yet, at the same time, a given 5e caster can know over a dozen spells, and cast them spontaneously from, eventually, some 20 or so low-level slots, and a handful of high-level ones.

In contrast, a 4e character only ever gets 4 encounters, 4 dailies and some much-less-significant utilities, and can only use each exactly once. So, while 4e characters are theoretically differentiated from each other individually, 5e characters are, individually, much broader in capability and vastly more flexible in how they use that capability. If sleep is the best spell for the situation all day long, a high level 5e wizard can cast it a couple dozen times if he really stretches to do so, the 4e wizard, once, maybe two or three if he leverages very specific feat and magic item choices, and maybe slips a pre-errata trick past his DM.

In short, 4e traded a great deal of flexibility and effectiveness for tighter balance, greater differentiation, and role-support. Part of the huge gulf between the 4e Warlord and it's 5e nth cousins is that difference in approach. To close that gap, the 5e Warlord wouldn't have to have hundreds of unique-to-the-Warlord maneuvers, it could, instead have only a few dozen, but have the ability master a fair majority of them, and use them with much great flexibility. A warlord proponent could still whine about the smaller number of possible warlords, but he couldn't doubt their effectiveness was improved at the individual level. And, it would adapt the Warlord to the 5e design paradigm, as evinced by actual 5e designs of other formerly-leader-in-4e classes.

Just out of curiosity, what is missing from a non-magical ninja in the assassin class? Surely it's just a matter of equipment, no?
IDK, could anyone in a typical fantasy setting make a smoke bomb or use a metsubishi effectively? The Essentials Executioner might have some ideas that could be incorporated.

Just some knee jerk reactions. It seems to me, from a very quick reading that a Shadow Monk fits the magic ninja pretty well and an assassin covers the non-magical one.
Much more coverage than the warlord, both in absolute and relative terms.

In absolute terms, the whole class and the classes' main thrust and concepts, not just bits of the sub sub-class, speak to the ninja in both cases: the rogue is sneaky, high-DPR, certainly fits the ninja, and the Assassin doubles-down on that, and, well, is an assassin; the Shadow Monk uses mystical powers to disappear into the shadows and power martial arts abilities (also all-ninja). So you have two base classes /plus/ two sub-classes worth of features virtually all of which are 4-square ninja goodies. In contrast, the main thrust of the fighter base class (tanky DPR, personal mastery of weaponry) and rogue base class (sneaky DPR and skill mastery) are at best side-lines of the warlord, and even the BM's maneuvers only have a few warlord-y options, so not even all the sub-class features apply - even expanding to SCAG, where most of the PDK and virtually all the Mm's sub-class tricks are at least a bit warlord-ish, they're still /just the sub-class/, and pulling against the main thrust of the base class rather than working with it.
(Arguably the monk suffers from the same phenomenon, just a bit: it may well be too all-in to the unarmed combat thing for a ninja, that's more nearly comparable to the problem of putting a warlord in a fighter archetype, though it's still much lesser in degree, just similar in type.)

In relative terms, that support need only cover the few extant concepts of 'ninja' - the mystic ninja, the highly-trained assassin ninja, the more obscure mountain-clansman-scout historical ninja (and, perhaps a Kunoichi, if they wanted to go there) - that are very narrow, specific, and culture-bound. The Warlord, OTOH, was used for a very broad range of concepts, not tied to a particular culture.

And that's the crux right there. I can pretty easily say what's missing from a Battlemaster if you want to make a warlord. Or a PDK. There's a rather large swath of elements missing to be honest and they've been enumerated numerous times.
It's actually pretty hard to spell out - it's easy to just throw out BM: 3 maneuvers, Warlord: 300, but to spell out how those might be translated into 5e (and expanded to mirror the greater breadth of 5e ex-leader-classes), is a daunting design undertaking, in itself.
 
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Corwin

Explorer
I think "should" implies opinion or at least judgement in that context.
Funny you should mention context. Because I used it when I read what Hussar said.

Now you may be inadvertently dismissing fact as opinion, it seems.
Fact? That's rich.

But, fact is, the BM has ~16 maneuvers,
How many does the barbarian have?

one of which bears the name of a Warlord at-will,
There you go getting hung up on names again...

The Warlord had it's Command Presence range of features and hundreds of 'maneuvers' (called 'exploits' in 4e), that the BM doesn't even begin to cover. That's fact. Hard numbers, not Hussar's opinion.
And to think someone just a few posts upthread was claiming no one wanted to directly port the 4e warlord into 5e whole-cloth. So much for that notion. Bummer.

By this extreme standard you, and a few others, keep touting, not a single 5e class meets the expectations of its predecessors. Not one class live up to what its trying to emulate from the past. They all fail. Woefully. Which do you think is more likely: The idea that none of the classes meet this standard you present? Or that your standard fails on its face? I'm going with the latter.
 
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