D&D 5E (2014) Advice on downtime feat training

[Obeliske]

I don't like the core rules take on API replacement of feats as it doesn't make sense to me that characters wake up one morning suddenly knowing how to "insert feat here". I'd like to incorporate some house rules that allow for training feats and such during downtime. Reading the PHB and DMG it doesn't really have anything useful for this. Just to be clear I want feat training to take a significant amount of downtime and money but I also want my players to be able to do it provided they put in the work.
I'm wondering what other people have done in this situation or what people think would be a fair compromise for it. This is in addition to the normal rules for leveling and not a replacement effect for their API's.

I have checked page 131 which contains rules on incorporating an additional set of rules to avoid the issue of "You wake up stronger, faster, better". I've also read page 231 which covers rules on giving the players feats as additional rewards. Neither of these are useful for me as I'm specifically looking for a system to allow my players to use their downtime for training should they be able to find a trainer (ie. the fighter learning how to dual wield in a school/training center/from an NPC).

 

[Riley37]

Whenever D&D PCs level up, they suddenly have new abilities, whether that's class features, ASIs or feats. If you want more granular, less formulaic character advancement, then you might skim any of the non-class-level-oriented TRPGs, from GURPs to Hero System to White Wolf.

 

[Horwath]

I don't like the core rules take on API replacement of feats as it doesn't make sense to me that characters wake up one morning suddenly knowing how to "insert feat here". I'd like to incorporate some house rules that allow for training feats and such during downtime. Reading the PHB and DMG it doesn't really have anything useful for this. Just to be clear I want feat training to take a significant amount of downtime and money but I also want my players to be able to do it provided they put in the work.
I'm wondering what other people have done in this situation or what people think would be a fair compromise for it. This is in addition to the normal rules for leveling and not a replacement effect for their API's.

I have checked page 131 which contains rules on incorporating an additional set of rules to avoid the issue of "You wake up stronger, faster, better". I've also read page 231 which covers rules on giving the players feats as additional rewards. Neither of these are useful for me as I'm specifically looking for a system to allow my players to use their downtime for training should they be able to find a trainer (ie. the fighter learning how to dual wield in a school/training center/from an NPC).

Well, it's a game thing.

You do not suddenly wake up stronger or faster or with some new knowledge.

You have trained and practice for few levels that new feature and with time you made it to become combat viable.

Or in game rules mechanics you got a "feat" or an increase to ability.


Also downtime for training feel kind of dumb. Hell, you could then even say, I have gained xp for few levels while on downtime.

Downtime should just be description of your activity while you are not a murderous hobo pillaging across countryside.

 

[schnee]

AD&D had rules about this.

You had to seek training from someone higher level before you could gain the next level skills. If you didn't do it, then you stopped accumulating experience points just shy of the amount that would put you 2 levels up, IIRC.

If it makes any sense, every table I was at eventually ditched these rules. It became a problem on a long quest - you can't really leave for training in the middle of a six month expedition in hostile territory.

The most we ever implemented was a flat percentage 'tax' deducted at major story beats. (That DM was an economics major. )

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

As already mentioned, it's assumed that your character is learning things as they go. It's usually not a matter of waking up one day and suddenly possessing a new feat.

 

[ArwensDaughter]

I asked a similar question quite a while back. I'm on the enworld app at the moment and not sure how to find the link to it, but I do remember that one suggestion I got pointed me to the rules for using downtown to train for skills and pointed out that the "skilled" fear gives you three skills. Therefore one could triple training time for a skill to figure out training time for a feat.

The game for which I asked the question has stalled due to schedules, so I haven't implemented any approach yet. My plan is to give them access to training for feats that make narrative sense (I.e. they have plausible access to teachers for). I'm not real worried about time because narratively there won't be any time pressure at the point they do their training.


Sent from my iPhone using EN World

 

[ArwensDaughter]

Found the thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...elpful. Sent from my iPhone using EN World

 

[Rhenny]

I think the Core treats it the way it does because allowing PCs to train in abilities/feats could potentially tip the balance of power, or become a time suck. If you are going to do it in your games it probably should become an exception rather than a rule.

I'd just extrapolate using current rules, which say it would take 250 days of downtime to learn a language or tool proficiency. So, for a feat, which is far more powerful, 500 days? Again, I think this is why the core rules assume that each PC is actively training throughout his/her life. Think about it this way, if you were an adventurer, would you take off for a year and a half of adventuring to gain a few new abilities, when you could continue to adventure and possibly gain even more? (1 1/2 years of adventuring could become well over 2 levels of adventuring with most campaigns - even 4 or more levels).

If you use the training option in the DMG p. 131, each time a PC levels up, he/she needs to spend time and money to gain the benefits of the level. I'd probably do the same for Feats and ASI, but cut the time and cost down by at least 1/2.

p.s. I do remember in the old days playing Traveler how the original version of that game had extensive charts to simulate pre-adventuring career benefits and penalties. I bet you could come up with a system derived from that to allow PCs to attempt to add feats or ASI with training - the key would be to have enough risk so that not everyone wants to do it, but the risks have to be manageable enough so that a few bad rolls won't make the PC unplayable. I bet it would be fun to give players the chance to learn new abilities that may introduce new flaws, traits, bonds or minor quirks that make roleplaying the character more interesting.

 

[Rhenny]

You've inspired me.

Here's something I came up with really quickly (no testing, and just from the top of my head trying to remember the old Traveler rules).

*****

Training to gain a feat or +2 ASI

First, find a trainer/logical way to gain the abilities.

Spend time and money.

Roll three times to see how well you did.

(Time expended) (Roll on d20 needed to gain success) (Cost)

500 days 3+ 5,000 gp
300 days 6+ 7,500 gp
200 days 8+ 10,000 gp
100 days 12+ 15,000 gp



Each successful roll gives you 1 credit. After three credits, you’ve gained the benefits. But, for each failed roll, you gain one of the following (roll d6):

1. Reduce 1 attribute score by 1 (PC choice)
2. Sacrifice 2 hit points, permanently.
3. Lose 100% more gp (or acquire debt)
4. Acquire 1 new flaw
5. Acquire 1 new personality trait
6. Acquire 1 new bond


If you roll a critical success, a natural “20”, you gain the admiration of your trainer and he/she accepts ½ payment and you add “You’ve developed a strong bond with ____________. As a result, you will often speak about him/her, defend him/her, and likewise, he/she will do the same regarding you.”

 

[GM Lent]

I don't like the core rules take on API replacement of feats as it doesn't make sense to me that characters wake up one morning suddenly knowing how to "insert feat here".

You woke up one morning and had suddenly completed First Grade (I assume). You didn't complete all the work necessary to do that in the day or even the week prior, but on that day you had quantifiably and reliably met the benchmarks and standards for having reached a new "level." Were you able to do anything you weren't able to do the day before? No, but now you could do it all consistently and reliably. Because of this, you were now prepared to begin learning the next phase of skills and capabilities, which would eventually be quantified in you passing (I assume) Second Grade or your country's equivalent.

This is how I view levels in D&D, and all the other abstract components of the game that depend on the idea of "levels." Nobody learn how to optimize the use of a pole weapon overnight, but after training and working with them for however long it takes, they hit a point where they can reliably and consistently smack somebody with the back end of a long-hafted weapon in combat, and can quickly smack somebody with the main end if that person gets too close. The game represents this by that character take the Polearm Master feat.

Does a person wake up one day suddenly stronger or faster or smarter than they were the day before? Probably not, but they likely wake up one day and discover that they can consistently bench press more than they could before or dance across a balance beam successfully every time or remember the long poem they were struggling to commit to memory. The game represents this by allowing a character to increase their ability scores.

I have never understood why people have issues with a level-based system of advancement. I get complaints that D&D magic doesn't work the way it does in most fantasy literature, but problems with a level/reward system seem to ignore that the entire (real) world is based on exactly that kind of system.