D&D 5E We need more spells known

[Illithidbix]

I houserule Rangers to always have Hunter's Mark as a known spell.

Since I feel they have a pathetic known spell list at the levels I play them. (And no equivalent to Oath Spells that Paladins, their half-caster rivals get)

 

[Gwarok]

At first glance that seems to be more than enough spells known. Can't see any reason to complain.

I'm fine with all of them except for Sorcerer, they seem really narrowly focused. You either choose combat, or out of combat stuff, or make the best of trying to split the difference with already limited selection. No one I've played 5E with since it came out has enjoyed playing Sorcerers for that reason. A few tried, but the other classes with similarly limited spells known tend to have a lot of other generally useful stuff to them to broaden the possibilities.

And while we are on the topic, the 2 class paths listed are pretty narrrow as well. Either your a wildmage who doesn't seem to fully control their own power and has random effects, or your are dragon person that sprouts wings. Not that there is anything wrong with either, but they do seem REALLY specific about your background and how your character will interact with the world. They should have a more generic one.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Sure you can, they're objective measures.

Point of clarification: are you arguing that it is physically possible to count up known spells, or that doing so suffices to prove non-viability? The former is uncontroversial but not germane; the latter is false.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Point of clarification: are you arguing that it is physically possible to count up known spells

Yes. It's a quantifiable and objective measure.

or that doing so suffices to prove non-viability?

Nope, just that it's a factor in comparing the relative balance of classes that know spells. One dimension subject to straightforward comparison, among several others not quite so amenable - and plenty of subjective distractions, too.

This is an important point. Some of the full spellcasting classes have things going for them outside of spellcasting. The bard I think is a good example of this with a myriad of support features, better skill usage, the option to pick up weapon and armor proficiency.

Two other good examples of full casters with a lot going for them besides casting: The Cleric and Druid, both prepping more spells than the Bard knows, and doing so from their whole lists.

Similarly, two good examples of full casters that get very little beyond their casting and features that mod that casting: The Wizard, yes, traditions get nifty features, but they're mostly about casting, so while the Wizard can learn tons of spells and prep more than the Sorcerer or Bard can know, it's not got a lot that doesn't directly bear on casting.

... oh, the second example? The Sorcerer, of course, the main/defining thing it gets beyond casting is metamagic, which mods it's casting.

:shrug:

Perhaps it says more about the (informal) roles of those classes? Cleric, Druid, & Bard have healing spells on their lists and lots of support capability, while the Sorcerer & Wizard have more spotlight-grabbing flashy/powerful offensive spells on theirs, and support more in buffing and utility/problem-solving.

 

[purplerook]

I'm fine with all of them except for Sorcerer, they seem really narrowly focused. You either choose combat, or out of combat stuff, or make the best of trying to split the difference with already limited selection. No one I've played 5E with since it came out has enjoyed playing Sorcerers for that reason. A few tried, but the other classes with similarly limited spells known tend to have a lot of other generally useful stuff to them to broaden the possibilities.

I am in a campaign with two Sorcerers. The players like the class and they kick some major ass. There is basically the Fire Sorcerer (Red Draconic Origin) and the Lightening Sorcerer (Tempest Origin). They use about 3-5 spells each - e.g., Fireball, Firebolt, Fly for the Fire Sorcerer. The limited spell list forces the character to focus and the origin provides some more interesting capabilities.

IMO, Sorcerer is for magic users that want to focus. Wizard can be for magic users that want to be spell monkeys - the magical equivalent of skill monkeys.


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[Hawk Diesel]

The problem I see with the sorcerers having so few spells known is that it quickly becomes a matter of making the right choice. You have no room to make sub-optimal choices that might be more in theme with your sorcerer. This forces system mastery, which is supposed to be one of the things 5e was made to address.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I am in a campaign with two Sorcerers. The players like the class... There is basically the Fire Sorcerer (Red Draconic Origin) and the Lightening Sorcerer (Tempest Origin). They use about 3-5 spells each - e.g., Fireball, Firebolt, Fly for the Fire Sorcerer. The limited spell list forces the character to focus and the origin provides some more interesting capabilities.

IMO, Sorcerer is for magic users that want to focus. Wizard can be for magic users that want to be spell monkeys - the magical equivalent of skill monkeys.

Another potentially interesting way to think about this is:

Sorcerers are like the X-Men. Each Sorcerer (X-Man) has his own unique shtick, different from other Sorcerers (X-Men). The Sorcerer spell list is not the spell list of a single specific sorcerer, but rather an entire menu of what is possible to accomplish using sorcery.

Wizards, on the other hand, are... well, wizards. Like Mazirian the Magician, they strive to "collect them all". The Wizard spell list could theoretically be the spell list of a single specific archmage (like Mordenkainen or Phaandaal), even though a given wizard will usually only be a small fraction of the way along that path. In this sense, wizards are kind of interchangeable and undifferentiated from each other: a 20th level wizard is much more similar to another 20th level wizard than a 20th level Sorcerer is to another 20th level Sorcerer.

Or at least, that's the way it SHOULD be. What gums this up is twofold:

(1) The Sorcerer spell list is overly constrained, and pretty uninteresting compared to the wizard list. Much of the differentiation between spells is stupid stuff like different ways to inflict 10d8 damage. A DM has got a lot of work cut out for him if he's trying to provide multiple ways for a Sorcerer to be awesome. Third-party products like the Book of Lost Spells can help.

(2) The PHB is very generous with wizard spells. You automatically learn two spells each time you go up a level, so in practice 5E wizards don't have to behave like Mazirian and covet/swap/trade/steal spells from other wizards, since they already have their most-coveted spells of each level automatically.

You could target either or both of these pain points if you want to more fully realize the differentiation between them.

Worthwhile house rule: wizards get no spells automatically when they level up, but they DO start with a book of spells as starting equipment (with say, 1st through 5th level spells in it), and furthermore the DM invents spell research rules so that wizards are guaranteed to be able to convert gold and time into new spells if they like. (There may not be magic item shops, but there ARE spell research libraries and maybe even universities!) Those new spells do not have to be identical to PHB spells. If you want to research Acidball instead of Fireball or Cone of Heat instead of Cone of Cold, be my guest. Here's the DC and the number of weeks it will take. If you want Dimension Door to work on unwilling targets, be my guest. Here's the DC and number of weeks. Etc.

For Sorcerers, I have no particular problem with just letting a given sorcerer pick any effect which could be researched fairly easily by a wizard, and make that his sorcerer spell. You want a no-material-components version of Stoneskin that turns you to steel instead of rock and lasts only for one minute while increasing your Strength by +2 at the same time? No problem, that's a fifth level Sorcerer spell, you can pick it at 9th level. Etc.

 

[cbwjm]

The problem I see with the sorcerers having so few spells known is that it quickly becomes a matter of making the right choice. You have no room to make sub-optimal choices that might be more in theme with your sorcerer. This forces system mastery, which is supposed to be one of the things 5e was made to address.

I don't think that is necessarily true. You only need a few damaging spells for most of your career, maybe a couple of defence, and you can spend the rest on any thematic spells you'd like. Some of the damaging and defence spells could easily be in your theme as well. I feel that the issue many players have with the sorcerer (primarily from reading complaints about it on this forum) is that they want a damage spell for each level and because they want one for each level they look at the sorcerer's limited spell knowledge and then consider them a blaster only when there is so many more utility and control spells on the sorcerer's spell list. Even if you do pick a spell that ends up not being as useful as you first thought it would be, you can easily swap it out when you level.

About the only thing that I think the sorcerer needs is more elemental spells for the dragon types to fill the gaps, but then I'm also happy to mod an existing spell and have the black dragon sorcerer know acidball instead of fireball.

 

[Xeviat]

The question is "what does the Sorcerer get in return for having such fewer spells known"? Sorcery points trade off against the wizard's arcane recovery almost one for one, so metamagic really isn't it. They seem to compare rather 1 for 1 with wizards except in known vs prepped. In 3E, at least sorcerers had 50% more base Spell slots than wizards and spontaneous casting to make up for getting spells a level later and having restricted spells known. That didn't really balance them, but You can't even make a statement like that in 5E.


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[Hawk Diesel]

The question is "what does the Sorcerer get in return for having such fewer spells known"? Sorcery points trade off against the wizard's arcane recovery almost one for one, so metamagic really isn't it. They seem to compare rather 1 for 1 with wizards except in known vs prepped. In 3E, at least sorcerers had 50% more base Spell slots than wizards and spontaneous casting to make up for getting spells a level later and having restricted spells known. That didn't really balance them, but You can't even make a statement like that in 5E.

This. All day, er' day.

Though I will say, [MENTION=57494]Xeviat[/MENTION], sorcerers do have a slight edge in being able to cannibalize lower level spell slots for metamagic and to create higher level spell slots. However, I still do not think this level of versatility is equal to the wizard's ability to prepare more spells than a sorcerer can know.

I can get behind wizards having access to more spells in their spell books. That makes sense. But for a wizard to be able to prepare more spells than a sorcerer can know seems backwards. Sorcerers should be able to know at least as many as a wizard can prepare.