D&D 5E We need more spells known

[cmad1977]

Meh. Nah.


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[schnee]

And you believe access to 5e metamagic is a "terrible mistake" transforming casters into "utterly godlike"?

Please. That's utterly godlike levels of hyperbole.

Of course that isn't what I meant and you know that. The terrible mistakes made in the 3.x casting classes could fill a book. Giving metamagic back to them would be just one of them.

Wizards are *already* the most flexible, powerful, versatile class by a wide margin. Giving them more at this point is just absurd.

 

[Xeviat]

I'm wondering if the difference in spells known/prepared for these two kinds of full casters is explained by the fact that one group has ritual casting and the other doesn't.

Maybe. Also maybe that Clerics and Druids have quite a few spells that are expected of them for their role. The trouble is that the Bard shares that roll. Worse, wizards can cast their rituals form their books; they don't need to prep them.


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[schnee]

Seriously, though, picking back up some of the things 3.5 did 'right' might be an idea. Some other things that might be worth bringing back:... allow ranged attacks to interrupt casting (perhaps as a Reaction), random starting spells, wizards needing to find spells to add to their book rather than just learning them automatically as they level, save DCs based on slot level rather than caster level, % magic resistance, etc...

AD&D 1E did those right... ...but yeah, some of that would be nice, even now.

AoOs for casting in melee

That was good. Except for the 5' step. And that one feat that avoided it. And...

giving away the one unique toy 5e Sorcerers got to all casters? Seriously?

Yeah, I made the same face. Some people just have to have a game that allows them to be better than everyone else by RAW or else it isn't fun. I think 3.x literally broke some people's sense of fair play.

 

[CapnZapp]

Of course that isn't what I meant and you know that. The terrible mistakes made in the 3.x casting classes could fill a book. Giving metamagic back to them would be just one of them.

Wizards are *already* the most flexible, powerful, versatile class by a wide margin. Giving them more at this point is just absurd.

But you do say it!

You quite specifically say "Giving metamagic back to them" "would be just one of" ["The terrible mistakes made in the 3.x"]

It's isn't!

Whether wizards are most flexible et al is neither here nor there. The point is that opening up 5e-style metamagic to all classes is not at all absurd. It is a minor boost at best. Nobody is saying Sorcerers are overpowered thanks to 5e metamagic.

Instead it hands out a large dollop of FUN to everybody.

The fact Sorcerers need to be fixed is a separate question, and I said already in the same post I think they should be remade.

 

[Lanefan]

I think the best scenario is if WotC tosses away the current Sorcerer and starts from scratch.

Give metamagic to every spellcasting class, Wizards in particular. (And no, I'm not talking about yet another archetype, the "metamagic school". I'm talking about using metamagic as it was meant: as an overlay on top of all existing casters, at least all "full" casters)

Bleah!

Metamagic was bad news in 3e - no reason to think it's any different now.

Then create a Sorcerer class with specific and extensive support for the themes we want to play: a Winter Witch should get a lot of cold spells and the incentives to use them all the time. So the first step is to choose your theme: winter, blood, rage, monsters (such as black dragon). Don't be afraid to make the framework slightly freeform, where the DM is empowered to make final calls as to which spell belongs to which theme (the secret is that this doesn't wreck balance nearly as much as you'd think).

This, however, might be on to something.

The Wild Mage needs basic support in the form of a couple of new spells that are highly random for everybody except the Wild Mage who can control them.

Or go the other way: give the Wild Mage a few spells she most of the time can't control (i.e. provoke a wild magic surge 90+% of the time) but that can randomly now and then be outstandingly useful e.g. some sort of mass-buff effect or near-automatic-win button. And, give them a low-level "spell" whose only effect is to provoke a WMS - a true Chaos Mage's dream!

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

AD&D 1E did those right... ...but yeah, some of that would be nice, even now.

All of that and more would be nice, and would have been anytime after 2e. One of 3e's biggest mistakes, that: getting rid of almost all the risks and drawbacks of casting. 4e and 5e have only made it worse...

That was good. Except for the 5' step. And that one feat that avoided it. And...

Better way is to make casting completely impossible* while in melee as it's guaranteed you'll be interrupted.

* - with a few exceptions: War Clerics (only if casting battle spells) should be able to cast in melee, and Wild Mages might intentionally take some risk and try it anyway just to get a Wild Magic Surge out of being interrupted.

Lanefan

 

[schnee]

It's isn't!

Whether wizards are most flexible et al is neither here nor there. The point is that opening up 5e-style metamagic to all classes is not at all absurd. It is a minor boost at best. Nobody is saying Sorcerers are overpowered thanks to 5e metamagic.

No, they're saying it's one of the few reasons they're any good at all.

Instead it hands out a large dollop of FUN to everybody.

Yep, because casters are the most boring, un-fun classes in the game at this point. So few options! So little to learn! They need more! More more more!

 

[ppaladin123]

I think the ranger should just prepare spells like the paladin with the same formula (with wisdom instead of charisma).

The warlock and sorcerer should get 1 more spell known from levels 1-5. Bestow curse should be on the warlock list. I am cool with the sorcerer spells being assigned by subtype (can think of 5 automatic chaos mage spells, for example).

The warlock should get 3 slots per rest a bit earlier. Ranger and Warlock should get hunter's mark and curse as class features not spells. W

Way of 4 elements monks should get cantrips from EEPC, two spells at every level where they get them (instead of one), should have access to pretty much any spell with some sort of elemental descriptor and the ki cost should be one less per cast/augment than it currently is.

Eldritch Knights should be able to choose from evocation, abjuration or transmutation and be able to cast while holding a shield by default (one half the warcaster feat)

Arcane Tricksters should be able to choose from illusion, enchantment or divination

Bards should have guidance and haste on their lists.

These and giving blade pact warlocks medium armor and martial weapon proficiency when they make their pact cover most of my issues with the classes.

 

[Xeviat]

I think the ranger should just prepare spells like the paladin with the same formula (with wisdom instead of charisma).

Yes.

The warlock and sorcerer should get 1 more spell known from levels 1-5. Bestow curse should be on the warlock list. I am cool with the sorcerer spells being assigned by subtype (can think of 5 automatic chaos mage spells, for example).

What 5 would you say? Chromatic Orb/Chaos Bolt is a definite.

The warlock should get 3 slots per rest a bit earlier. Ranger and Warlock should get hunter's mark and curse as class features not spells.

Maybe. I'd definitely like that. Doubly so on Hunter's Mark and Hex.

Way of 4 elements monks should get cantrips from EEPC, two spells at every level where they get them (instead of one), should have access to pretty much any spell with some sort of elemental descriptor and the ki cost should be one less per cast/augment than it currently is.

Part of my change with them is leaving the cost the same (Ki > SP works for me), but the 4 Elements monk should cast those spells as a bonus action (like the Sun Soul Monk has burning hands as a bonus). That would let them be Gishy.

Eldritch Knights should be able to choose from evocation, abjuration or transmutation and be able to cast while holding a shield by default (one half the warcaster feat)

I let Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, Valor Bards, and Blade Warlocks use their weapons as an Arcane Focus (divine casters can use their shields as a focus) for their material and somatic components.

Arcane Tricksters should be able to choose from illusion, enchantment or divination

Sure.

Bards should have guidance and haste on their lists.

Sure. But they can take them with their "choose any" ability.

These and giving blade pact warlocks medium armor and martial weapon proficiency when they make their pact cover most of my issues with the classes.

That works.