D&D 5E Nerfing Great Weapon Master

[hejtmane]

So ... is the general thought that Disadvantage would make it too good against low AC opponents and better against high AC opponents? That it would be about equal at the medium ACs, but that's not where it's a problem?

My thought was to avoid stacking -5 to hit and Advantage. Would that not help rein it in?

Same goes for Sharp Shooter.


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Some have done a -3/5 instead of -5/10

I was going to test it just to see what happens but my players wanted nothing to do with the change and only one person in their group had GWM or SS, I was just curious how it would effect the play but at the end of the day if my players are fine with the default feat and I had no issues with the feat so I left as is because everyone was still happy. I was just curious how that type of change it would play out in a game.

 

[CapnZapp]

If you don't wish to address the OP's topic, and instead want to continue to harp on how WotC needs to issue errata on the feat, or that WotC sucks, or whatever other un-useful complaining (hint: not the topics of this thread), then perhaps you could find someplace more appropriate to waive your banner?

I am here to convince people like you that the feat needs fixin': catching attempts at derailing the analysis, pointing out bad arguments and catching simplified calculations.

I have no illusions that WotC is reading this, so I don't know what you are on about.

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[CapnZapp]

I think something like that, yes. At a base chance to hit of 50/50, -5 to hit & Disadvantage are mathematically pretty close when it comes to final chance to hit. The more you deviate from 50/50 to start, the /better/ the feat gets using Disad instead of -5, I think (I haven't thought it through too carefully, but that's my impression from past analysis of Adv/Dis).

I haven't crunched the numbers either, but my feeling is that disadvantage is worse from a minmaxers POV, and therefore preferable as a general solution.



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[Corwin]

I am here to convince people like you that the feat needs fixin'

I am here to convince people like you that not everyone thinks the feat needs fixin': in spite of your repeated claims that present your opinion as a universal fact.

 

[Cognomen's Cassowary]

One thread on buffing the champion. One on nerfing GWM.

I'm getting mixed messages.

 

[dco]

I haven't crunched the numbers either, but my feeling is that disadvantage is worse from a minmaxers POV, and therefore preferable as a general solution.

Disadvantage would make the feat more powerful:

>=5:
Disadvantage --> 64%
-5 --> 55%
Normal --> 80%
Advantage-5 --> 79.75%

>=10
Disadvantage --> 30.25%
-5 --> 30%
Normal --> 55%
Advantage-5 --> 51%

>=15, 15 max using the -5
Disadvantage --> 9%
-5 --> 5%
Normal --> 30%
Advantage-5 --> 9.75%

 

[Tony Vargas]

One thread on buffing the champion. One on nerfing GWM.

I'm getting mixed messages.

Nothing contradictory about it. The Champion's improved crit range is it's main claim to DPR fame, and crits only multiply damage dice - a Champion using GWM has no particular edge in exploiting that feat compared to any other fighter (or barbarian or paladin or whatever) doing so.

But, at the same time, GWM does represent a high-power DPR build, and relative to full casters and the like, the Champion, along with other melee types could be 'hurt' by nerfing it. Thus it might make more sense to address a perceived balance issue with GWM by buffing up other melee options (combat styles) to rival it, instead.

I am here to convince people like you that the feat needs fixin': catching attempts at derailing the analysis, pointing out bad arguments and catching simplified calculations.

I am here to convince people like you that not everyone thinks the feat needs fixin': in spite of your repeated claims that present your opinion as a universal fact.

Hm...

So, we do know exactly how the GWM feat works, and the -5/+10 portion of it which seems to be what everyone's hung up on, is easily analyzed for it's affect on DPR. So the 'universal' fact is not in dispute, just the opinion of whether that effect is too much (or tool little, or Goldilocks 'just-right'), and whether a given DM wants to change that.

But the actual OP's topic wasn't whether it was broken or should be fixed, but how to fix it.

Disadvantage would make the feat more powerful:

That was how it seemed to me on the surface...

>=5:
Disadvantage --> 64%
-5 --> 55%
Normal --> 80%
Advantage-5 --> 79.75%

>=10
Disadvantage --> 30.25%
-5 --> 30%
Normal --> 55%
Advantage-5 --> 51%

>=15, 15 max using the -5
Disadvantage --> 9%
-5 --> 5%
Normal --> 30%
Advantage-5 --> 9.75%

So, the first line of each group is the natural roll you need to hit before applying the GWM penalty/disad? And, the 'Normal' line is the % chance to hit w/o applying the penalty /and/ also the chance to hit when the disadvantage version is countered by Advantage? Correct?

 

[Corwin]

So, we do know exactly how the GWM feat works, and the -5/+10 portion of it which seems to be what everyone's hung up on, is easily analyzed for it's affect on DPR. So the 'universal' fact is not in dispute, just the opinion of whether that effect is too much (or tool little, or Goldilocks 'just-right'), and whether a given DM wants to change that.

If you think that was the "fact" I was referring, to WRT the other poster, I'm not sure how I did that. I was talking about some posters' attempts to present their opinions of a feats disruptability as being some kind of universally experienced truth.

Although, to your point here, is there a 'universal fact' as to how the feat impacts DPR? Because I can't see how that's possible.

 

[Corwin]

Disadvantage would make the feat more powerful:

Awesome analysis.

I think this is a great snapshot of how some people tend to jump in, making snap knee-jerk reactions to things they don't like, at first glance. Enacting swift theory-crafted, white-room changes only to find they did more harm than good. Exacerbating whatever issue they think they are perceiving in the first place.

Well done.

 

[hejtmane]

One thread on buffing the champion. One on nerfing GWM.

I'm getting mixed messages.

Champion even with GWM gets out classes by EK or Battle Master in every game I have played the extra 5% in crit does not make up the difference because the others still have 5% chance themselves to crit. EK's are better becuse of shield and absob elements and things like Blur all great for reducing incoming damage so better surviability. Battle Master from what I have seen just does more damage if they use their superioty dice it just outlclasses the extra 5% chance to crit. That is from a DM running games with those setups at any given time.

Also note if you are a fighter and running Polearm + GWM then the extra bonus attack with the crit is a yawner instead of a 1d4 damage the bonus attack goes to 1d10, the crit helps builds that use greatsword, maul or great axe in a more meaingful way.