D&D 5E Anyone else think the Bard concept is just silly?

[steeldragons]

How do you imagine a cleric casting their spells? Are they saying/singing prayers? Chanting?

I have, in my homebrew world, a near dead language from the former dominant empire, a la "Latin." Clerical spells are basically, invocations and prayers spoken/"cast" in that language. It's the language of the world's religions...and, thus, the language of divine magic.

So, to the ear of someone who doesn't know the language, it's just as incomprehensible as a mage speaking an arcane incantation.

To those who know the language they would be translated -and could be understood- as such like, "Oh great Astar, sovereign of all creation, grant your devoted servant the power to overcome this enemy of your divine Order!" That could, conceivably, be a Bless "spell" for a cleric of my world's Light/Good/Law/Civilization/King of the Gods.

"Merciful Mother, Shining Rose, if I be worthy, grant your life-giving fire that this servant of Good might be restored to fight in your glory." a Cure Wounds for my homebrew's goddess of healing.

And so on. Anyone that can speak the language could say the same words...but only a legit cleric/devoted priest (or paladin, etc...) of the invoked deity is going to actually be heard or receive a "response."

 

[Hussar]

The simulation vs. cinematic is not a black or white proposition. You can go 70% simulation and 30% cinematic or some other ratio.

In game the characters don't know about HPs, but they know when a healing spell is cast. I'm not going to have all the characters ignore the fact that the cleric cast a healing spell on someone that isn't physically hurt. There is going to be some in-game reason for it.

You seem to have a hate on for more simulation heavy games. That's fine. Play how you want. But that doesn't mean that those of us that like more "realism" or "verisimilitude" or "simulationist" or whatever you want to call it, are wrong for trying to find an in-game explanation for HPs, damage and healing.

Likewise (trying to pull this slightly back on topic) the reason a Bard isn't just a singing fool in my games is because of the very real magic that his singing, music or poetry (or whatever) generate.

Nope, love me some heavy simulation games. Adore them. I just realized long ago that people somehow considering D&D to be one of them drives me up the wall. Particularly when actual simulationist gamers want nothing to do with D&D for precisely the reasons we're bringing up here - HP and the like.

If "healing spell" bothers you, I just look at it as a blessing. The cleric's god has "thanked" the PC for aiding the cleric.

But, for the most part, I simply ignore it.

 

[Lord Twig]

Nope, love me some heavy simulation games. Adore them. I just realized long ago that people somehow considering D&D to be one of them drives me up the wall. Particularly when actual simulationist gamers want nothing to do with D&D for precisely the reasons we're bringing up here - HP and the like.

If "healing spell" bothers you, I just look at it as a blessing. The cleric's god has "thanked" the PC for aiding the cleric.

But, for the most part, I simply ignore it.

I would be interested in what you consider a "simulation game".

D&D is certainly not a hardcore simulation game, but that doesn't mean it is a complete fluff storytelling game either. It is somewhere in the middle. Personally I like my D&D a little further down the simulation spectrum, but I know others that play D&D in a more narrative fashion and have a blast with it.

But no. I don't have a problem with healing spells, because healing spells heal actual damage.

I also like the Slow Natural Healing rules in the DMG, but if I can't play with them then I assumed that whatever magical healing that is left at the end of the day is what is used to get everyone back up to full after a long rest. This is what my players suggested when they shot down the Slow Natural Healing option. It's a bit too hand-wavy for my taste, but my players really liked the full healing after a full night's rest. (The bunch of pansies... )

 

[Brandegoris]

How do you imagine a cleric casting their spells? Are they saying/singing prayers? Chanting?

I Imagine them pointing and saying a word of power.
What I don't imagine is them Strumming a lute, Playing shrill Notes on a Pan pipe and dancing around like a Pansy
I Imagine them with a Weapon or shield In one hand thrust before them, A determined look on their face and An Earnest word of Power being shouted with a Deep throated voice
And Im Sure there are other ways to imagine that too.

ALSO Just so I am being Clear: I do not have any problem with "Music Being Magic". I am all for it...I just have a hard time with it being used in a Combat situation because visualizing that ( TO ME ANYWAY), conjures silly ass images.

I Also Once again want to thank Everyone in this thread because its been very thoughtful and it definitely has given me food for thought so I do thank you

 

[steeldragons]

Precisely as I suspected from page one here...You're "trouble" with the concept of a bard as magical minstrel is actually just a generalized level of being anti-"Pansy."

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Precisely as I suspected from page one here...You're "trouble" with the concept of a bard as magical minstrel is actually just a generalized level of being anti-"Pansy."

What, you got a problem with manly men being manly about how manly we are?

Seriously, though, i'll never understand the aversion to anything that doesn't fit into a narrow "manliness" box, in general, or calling people "pansy" for not fitting into that box, specifically.


Or, for that matter, why prancing and shrill notes on a lute, or whatever, are so deeply ingrained in some people's concept of a troubadour. Have I missed a lot of really bad popular media, somehow? Was I too busy reading Tolkien and Dumas when I was a kid to watch the same cartoons ya'll watched? (hey, I got beat up for reading long nerdy novels like lotr and The Stand until i got big enough to push back hard enough to put a stop to it, I'm gonna humble brag if I damn well want to!)

I just don't get it.

 

[Arnwolf666]

54 pages of arguing about the best Bard Class in any edition of D&D to date. Wow.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

54 pages of arguing about the best Bard Class in any edition of D&D to date. Wow.

It's a matter of perspective, but I would consider the 5E bard to be one of the worst from among the past four editions. It's probably tied with the 3E bard, which was bad for different reasons. The 2E bard was pretty much perfect, though.

 

[Hussar]

I would be interested in what you consider a "simulation game".

D&D is certainly not a hardcore simulation game, but that doesn't mean it is a complete fluff storytelling game either. It is somewhere in the middle. Personally I like my D&D a little further down the simulation spectrum, but I know others that play D&D in a more narrative fashion and have a blast with it.

But no. I don't have a problem with healing spells, because healing spells heal actual damage.

I also like the Slow Natural Healing rules in the DMG, but if I can't play with them then I assumed that whatever magical healing that is left at the end of the day is what is used to get everyone back up to full after a long rest. This is what my players suggested when they shot down the Slow Natural Healing option. It's a bit too hand-wavy for my taste, but my players really liked the full healing after a full night's rest. (The bunch of pansies... )

Hrm, let's see. I'll admit, I'm a bit out of date when it comes to hardcore sim games, mostly cause I just don't have the time to devote to them. But, I'd include the following in the list:

GURPS (space mostly is what I played)
Harn (sorry, can't make the funny accent over the a)
Rolemaster
Pirates and Privateers (sorry, going back a few years, i know)

There have been others over the years, but, my memory is failing me at the moment.

But, to answer your point, no, I don't see D&D as narrative either. It's a mostly gamist game with a thin veneer of narrativism and sim. The wargaming roots of the game permeate pretty much every facet of play, AFAIC. Which means that things like HP faze me not in the least. They're just numbers.

What I've never understood is, with all the really good simulation games out there, why on earth would anyone pick D&D as their sim game? It's like trying to off road with a Honda Civic. Sure, you can do it, but, wow, it's so much more work than it's worth.

 

[cbwjm]

54 pages of arguing about the best Bard Class in any edition of D&D to date. Wow.

Most of the argument has been about the concept of a guy running around in combat singing and playing an instrument; also hit points and what they represent for some reason... Not sure how that one started. I think most are in agreement that the bard class is pretty good.