D&D 5E Berserker Barbarian good or needs fix? What Fix?

[discosoc]

I've made it so that Frenzy costs Hit Dice (instead of causing Exhaustion) and the extra attack is part of the Attack action instead of a Bonus action.

My players love it and it still doesn't feel overpowered compared to many other builds.

I'd love it too, consider it's basically perma-frenzy after a few levels, *and* makes GWM even more OP than it already is.

 

[discosoc]

However, when he uses his basic, starting, subclass feature, he suddenly gains a substantial penalty to his strength checks for probably the rest of the day, that means he is almost certainly no longer fulfilling that role in the party. Going so frenzied that he wears out afterwards is fun and thematic. But the way it is implemented doesn't support the basic concept well.

There's nothing stopping the player from choosing a normal rage instead. Hell, in most fights, the bonus action attack is kind of overkill anyway. Frenzy just gives him a way of going uber on the fights that really mean it. I think the only "conceptual" problem here is that players think it needs to be an always-on ability. Hell, compared to something like the Champion -- who can go an entire session without seeing their ability activate -- being able to choose when to Frenzy is pretty good.

I really think the Frenzy path's biggest problem is in player expectations rather than actual mechanical deficiencies.

 

[GameOgre]

Or because almost every time Barbarians have picked Totem so WotC aren't seeing much complaints for a subclass nobody plays?

My proposed quick-fix: drop the exhaustion altogether.

So what if Berserker gets a bonus action? Every competent minmax build gets a bonus action. Frenzy also doesn't work the same round you start the rage. This ability is vastly overrated.

If frenzy is free I admit it goes from "abysmal" to "really good", but what's wrong with that?

Zapp

PS.

If anything, force a Frenzied character to ALWAYS use Reckless Attack - talk about a "cost" that is both thematically appropriate and easy to use.

I think i'm going to give this a try. To be honest it seems a bit OP just like bears 50% damage does. I did some math and it still doesn't even come out on top of the dpr race or anything so, I'll give it a go and see how it works out....if I can find someone to try it out.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

There's nothing stopping the player from choosing a normal rage instead. Hell, in most fights, the bonus action attack is kind of overkill anyway. Frenzy just gives him a way of going uber on the fights that really mean it. I think the only "conceptual" problem here is that players think it needs to be an always-on ability. Hell, compared to something like the Champion -- who can go an entire session without seeing their ability activate -- being able to choose when to Frenzy is pretty good.

I really think the Frenzy path's biggest problem is in player expectations rather than actual mechanical deficiencies.

Two out of the four issues I addressed were exactly that. My assertion is that this is a design failure, not a result of idiot players.

If they really wanted it to be a 1/day thing, they would have made it actually a 1/day thing so it was clear.

 

[BookBarbarian]

If anything, force a Frenzied character to ALWAYS use Reckless Attack - talk about a "cost" that is both thematically appropriate and easy to use.

I like it, but then again, I always reckless attack on any Barbarian. I'm always hoping to see a Crit.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Two out of the four issues I addressed were exactly that. My assertion is that this is a design failure, not a result of idiot players.

If they really wanted it to be a 1/day thing, they would have made it actually a 1/day thing so it was clear.

1/day is for people with good sense, but if the PC had good sense, he/she wouldn't be a berserker, would they? While I don't think it is a particularly good option, multiple frenzies a day does support the idea of a suicide play, which is thematic for the berserker: I have already frenzied twice today, and three times almost assures my death, but Glory and Valhalla!

 

[SmokeyCriminal]

I remember Mearls mention their approach to 'fixes' that was interesting. He mentioned that sometimes the real problem isn't the problem everyone is complaining about. That when a mechanic is pointed out as needing to be "fixed" (And they agree) the first thing they try to do is look at everything that interacts with the mechanic and try to determine if the problem is in fact the mechanic that everyone is pointing at, or if the mechanic is just a "symptom" of the real problem. With that in mind, it sounds like the real problem isn't Frenzy but rather Exhaustion.

From day one Exhaustion hits you like a truck. Players avoid it like the plague and the moment a character has it all they care about is getting rid of it. Which makes the mechanic either non-existent or hyper focused in a game. So I think maybe the 'fix' shouldn't be Frenzy but rather making Exhaustion a tiny bit more subtle, that way you can sprinkle the mechanic in your game a little more so it's no longer non-existent, and the players can leave it in the back burner for a few scenes so it's no longer hyper focused.

Maybe add one more level of Exhaustion so there's 7 and make it so you can't add your proficiency to Ability Checks. That way, at first, it only feels like a -2 to a fraction of your Ability Checks, Something that feels annoying but not crippling. Plus it's Thematic "You're too Tired to be better then others at this thing, but you're still not bad at it." Then just say that it gets replaced with Level 2 Disadvantage on Ability Checks.

Now your Berserker won't mind carrying around a single level of Exhaustion every now and then which means he'll Frenzy a little more. Even if it's just once more then before it's still twice as often. Plus there's something cool and rugged about being the one that's still pushing on even when your the only one exhausted, like you're pushing yourself harder then the rest of the party, but not feeling gimped or like a liability.

OR! Berserker gets a Feature at Lv3 that says something like " You Ignore any Effects from Exhaustion that would give Disadvantage"

So you basically shrug off Lv1 and Lv3. That feels super badass but nitch enough to not be OP and helps with Frenzy.

 

[Croesus]

Maybe add one more level of Exhaustion so there's 7 and make it so you can't add your proficiency to Ability Checks.

...snip...

OR! Berserker gets a Feature at Lv3 that says something like " You Ignore any Effects from Exhaustion that would give Disadvantage"

Both ideas have merit. I was also considering simply allowing a barbarian to ignore any exhaustion effects while raging, but not otherwise.

 

[N810]

My DM made the simple fix,
that all exhaustion is cured after a long rest.
this seems to have fixed most of the problem with my Berserker.

ps. if you look carefully you will notice that the features from rage cancel out a lot of the penalties from first couple of levels of exhaustion.

 

[CapnZapp]

I remember Mearls mention their approach to 'fixes' that was interesting. He mentioned that sometimes the real problem isn't the problem everyone is complaining about. That when a mechanic is pointed out as needing to be "fixed" (And they agree) the first thing they try to do is look at everything that interacts with the mechanic and try to determine if the problem is in fact the mechanic that everyone is pointing at, or if the mechanic is just a "symptom" of the real problem. With that in mind, it sounds like the real problem isn't Frenzy but rather Exhaustion.

From day one Exhaustion hits you like a truck. Players avoid it like the plague and the moment a character has it all they care about is getting rid of it. Which makes the mechanic either non-existent or hyper focused in a game. So I think maybe the 'fix' shouldn't be Frenzy but rather making Exhaustion a tiny bit more subtle, that way you can sprinkle the mechanic in your game a little more so it's no longer non-existent, and the players can leave it in the back burner for a few scenes so it's no longer hyper focused.

This is good thinking, except two things:
1) until WotC errataes Exhaustion, this will deviate your game significantly from RAW
2) suddenly we're discussing the general topic of Exhaustion, not one particular ability of a specific subclass. Meaning I think maybe the 'fix' shouldn't be Exhaustion after all, since the only thing we need to do here is drop the exhaustion from Frenzy and we're done.

Don't get me wrong, fixing Exhaustion is still a worthy topic, but here and now we're "only" discussing Frenzy. And the bigger the change, the better it is for WotC to do it officially for all of us.

After all, one valid "solution" that many of us are already using is ... to simply avoid anything that gives you Exhaustion!

So maybe if Frenzy didn't carry that cost, everything else about Exhaustion could be fixed later (if at all)?