People don't like it because they think Frenzy is its main ability.
It's not. Mindless Rage is. Frenzy is a "panic button."
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D&D 5E Berserker Barbarian good or needs fix? What Fix?
- Thread starter GameOgre
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It's not. Mindless Rage is. Frenzy is a "panic button."
cmad1977
Hero
Eh. I guess. Sounds like a lot of hand wringing to me.
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Then people don't like it because you don't get your main ability until level 6, while the other ones get it at level 3. Instead you get a rage ability that gives you a penalty when you use it, while everyone else gets a rage ability they can use every single time, without penalty.
Ultimately, I think it does even out. Mindless Rage is much better than the other 6th level abilities. But it's not obvious at first glance.
Live or Die situations like that would probably call for raging just to make the ability check in the first place. Or inspiration, etc.. Anyway, if the barb had to rage so often that this is a normal problem, then I'd say he's either way too focused on being able to Frenzy every fight, or the DM hasn't balanced encounters properly. Usually it's the first issue though, where the player just wants 100% uptime on the ability.
jaelis
Oh this is where the title goes?
I wouldn't say frenzy is a "bad ability." If someone offered it to me I'd take it. But I don't see it being as valuable as the other path level 3 abilities, due to the drawbacks and the existence of polearm master. Mindless rage at 6 is IMO the best of the level 6 options, but I don't know if it is enough to make up for the weak level 3.
Likewise, berzerkers eventually look forward to having friend(s) who can cast greater restoration. Or can get their hands on potions of vitality. Both of which mitigate the downside of their frenzy, allowing them to use it even more from mid-to-high levels on.
Yeah.
jgsugden
Legend
I've played a Frenzied Barby up to 16th level. It is not the most powerful build, but it is fine. It falls further behind at higher level when there are more opportunities for a bonus action attack, but if you combine their 14th level ability with Sentry feat, you get the reaction attacks easily as well, so very high level play catches back up and you get can get to that 5 attack round reliably (Multi for 2, Haste (if you can find a source), Bonus from Frenzy, Reaction) in key combats. Paladin blows all barby builds out of the water at medium and higher level. however.
Ultimately the problem is that it turns exhaustion into a resource. Exhaustion is one of the only effects not completely recovered by a long rest.
Getting 2-3 levels of exhaustion in a day would probably be an OK from a risk/reward standpoint if they were all gone the next day. But since they are not it means effectively you are probably limited to 1 frenzy a day. (keep in mind ability checks include initiative, and any grapples).
Depending on the campaign, getting the bear totem can be a complete game changer.
I think it would help out the archetype a lot if they could ignore the effects of exhaustion while raging. So the penalty for going into exhaustion is easier to manage. (but still has to be dealt with eventually).
Getting 2-3 levels of exhaustion in a day would probably be an OK from a risk/reward standpoint if they were all gone the next day. But since they are not it means effectively you are probably limited to 1 frenzy a day. (keep in mind ability checks include initiative, and any grapples).
Depending on the campaign, getting the bear totem can be a complete game changer.
I think it would help out the archetype a lot if they could ignore the effects of exhaustion while raging. So the penalty for going into exhaustion is easier to manage. (but still has to be dealt with eventually).
UngeheuerLich
Legend
It only needs a ribbon feature at level 3.
Abilities that are powerful but seldom usable should have a little friend. I am not sure a remove exhaustion ability is the right thing.
Abilities that are powerful but seldom usable should have a little friend. I am not sure a remove exhaustion ability is the right thing.
Croesus
Adventurer
I've seen both types of barbarians in play and both are fine.
As has been mentioned above, frenzy generally only gets used once per day, usually a boss fight. In such situations, being able to deal out an extra attack really does make a difference. I've seen a berserker cut down swathes of enemies, then turn the boss into swiss cheese, all while the rest of the party was just trying to keep up. Basically, trading additional offense vs. the defensive benefits of bear totem.
I've only seen the berserker character frenzy more than once a day in two situations, and both needed it (the party really messed up, allowing their enemies to gang up on them). The first level of exhaustion generally only causes problems for initiative rolls and escaping grapples. The second level cutting speed in half slows the entire party. So exhaustion matters, but it's not a game breaker.
Again, as mentioned above, Mindless Rage can be really useful, but also rarely. When the berserker fought a sea hag, the hag's main ability was useless against the berserker. (The hag frightens enemies, then can cause frightened enemies to drop to zero hit points.) There was also a fight against a creature (I forget which one) that could dominate. Because domination is based on the charmed condition, the berserker was unaffected. A dominated barbarian turning on the party can easily create a TPK, but the berserker didn't break stride.
I think the main problem is that bear totem is just too good. It needs to be higher level than 3rd, or better yet, not a totem choice at all - something that all barbarians gain at a specific level. Still, a berserker can easily hold his own against other barbarian builds. The player just has to be a bit judicious about choosing when to frenzy.
As has been mentioned above, frenzy generally only gets used once per day, usually a boss fight. In such situations, being able to deal out an extra attack really does make a difference. I've seen a berserker cut down swathes of enemies, then turn the boss into swiss cheese, all while the rest of the party was just trying to keep up. Basically, trading additional offense vs. the defensive benefits of bear totem.
I've only seen the berserker character frenzy more than once a day in two situations, and both needed it (the party really messed up, allowing their enemies to gang up on them). The first level of exhaustion generally only causes problems for initiative rolls and escaping grapples. The second level cutting speed in half slows the entire party. So exhaustion matters, but it's not a game breaker.
Again, as mentioned above, Mindless Rage can be really useful, but also rarely. When the berserker fought a sea hag, the hag's main ability was useless against the berserker. (The hag frightens enemies, then can cause frightened enemies to drop to zero hit points.) There was also a fight against a creature (I forget which one) that could dominate. Because domination is based on the charmed condition, the berserker was unaffected. A dominated barbarian turning on the party can easily create a TPK, but the berserker didn't break stride.
I think the main problem is that bear totem is just too good. It needs to be higher level than 3rd, or better yet, not a totem choice at all - something that all barbarians gain at a specific level. Still, a berserker can easily hold his own against other barbarian builds. The player just has to be a bit judicious about choosing when to frenzy.
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