D&D 5E Berserker Barbarian good or needs fix? What Fix?

[Yunru]

I've seen both types of barbarians in play and both are fine.

As has been mentioned above, frenzy generally only gets used once per day, usually a boss fight. In such situations, being able to deal out an extra attack really does make a difference. I've seen a berserker cut down swathes of enemies, then turn the boss into swiss cheese, all while the rest of the party was just trying to keep up. Basically, trading additional offense vs. the defensive benefits of bear totem.

I've only seen the berserker character frenzy more than once a day in two situations, and both needed it (the party really messed up, allowing their enemies to gang up on them). The first level of exhaustion generally only causes problems for initiative rolls and escaping grapples. The second level cutting speed in half slows the entire party. So exhaustion matters, but it's not a game breaker.

Again, as mentioned above, Mindless Rage can be really useful, but also rarely. When the berserker fought a sea hag, the hag's main ability was useless against the berserker. (The hag frightens enemies, then can cause frightened enemies to drop to zero hit points.) There was also a fight against a creature (I forget which one) that could dominate. Because domination is based on the charmed condition, the berserker was unaffected. A dominated barbarian turning on the party can easily create a TPK, but the berserker didn't break stride.

I think the main problem is that bear totem is just too good. It needs to be higher level than 3rd, or better yet, not a totem choice at all - something that all barbarians gain at a specific level. Still, a berserker can easily hold his own against other barbarian builds. The player just has to be a bit judicious about choosing when to frenzy.

And hope they can't use feats. Because Frenzy is completely outclassed by Polearm Master, and occasionally outclassed by Great Weapon Fighter.
Another point against the class is that it's the Frenzy Barbarian. It doesn't matter if it has a sweet level 6 feature if its naming feature sucks ass.

 

[Croesus]

And hope they can't use feats. Because Frenzy is completely outclassed by Polearm Master, and occasionally outclassed by Great Weapon Fighter.
Another point against the class is that it's the Frenzy Barbarian. It doesn't matter if it has a sweet level 6 feature if its naming feature sucks ass.

Ah, something I didn't mention - the berserker is playing in a campaign without feats. Of course, that just highlights all the assumptions folks make when they say something is overpowered or nerfed. My personal experience is that once we take away the assumptions, pretty much everything in 5E works quite well. Just one of the reasons my group really likes this edition.

As for the name, no opinion.

 

[Ashkelon]

Ah, something I didn't mention - the berserker is playing in a campaign without feats. Of course, that just highlights all the assumptions folks make when they say something is overpowered or nerfed. My personal experience is that once we take away the assumptions, pretty much everything in 5E works quite well. Just one of the reasons my group really likes this edition.

As for the name, no opinion.

Well, yes 5e is much more balanced without feats. That is largely a result of feats being tacked on at the last minute and having very little play testing done for them.

That being said, I wouldn't play in a game without feats because that removes all choice of character customization and leads to quite boring gameplay IMHO.

 

[mellored]

IMO: The biggest issue is the flavor. Frenzy barbarian should be in a frenzy. Not simply be able to exert herself a bit more. He should feel like an overwhelming power that can be dangerous to everyone around him. Similar to a wild sorcerer.


i.e.
While you are in a frenzy, and immediately after you take the attack action, you must immediately move towards the closest creature and make 1 additional attack against them. If more than one creature is equally distant, choose randomly. In addition, all of your attacks must be reckless attacks. (No bonus action, no exhaustion)


That said, I also like the exhaustion mechanic. I would probably rewrite the barbarian to use it for rages in general.
i.e.
Rage: You can rage, gaining X benifits. When the rage ends you gain a level of exhaustion.
Relentless: When you take a long rest, reduce 2 level of exhaustion instead of 1.
At level 5, you can recover 3 levels of exhaustion during a long rest. In addition, you do not suffer a speed penalty for exhaustion.
At level 11, you recover 1 level of exhaustion during a short rest.
At level 14, you recover 2 levels of exhaustion during a short rest.
At level 20, you are immune to exhaustion.

Or some such.

 

[Corwin]

And hope they can't use feats. Because Frenzy is completely outclassed by Polearm Master, and occasionally outclassed by Great Weapon Fighter.

Ah, something I didn't mention - the berserker is playing in a campaign without feats. Of course, that just highlights all the assumptions folks make when they say something is overpowered or nerfed. My personal experience is that once we take away the assumptions, pretty much everything in 5E works quite well. Just one of the reasons my group really likes this edition.

Not only that, but if the theory is that "Frenzy is completely outclassed by Polearm Master", then don't take PAM as a berserker. Its not like you lose that "feat slot" or anything. Use that ASI, you would have otherwise used to take it, and do something else with it. Its as if the theory is that berserkers need to take PAM? We use feats and I haven't seen any barbarian take that particular feat. As anecdotal as that may be, every barbarian has functioned just fine without PAM. So its evidently not necessary to be successful.

As for the claim that "Frenzy is completely outclassed by Polearm Master", I actually disagree anyway. I don't see it.

 

[Leatherhead]

I'm playing an Eagle Totem Barbarian. Let me tell you about a few Barbarian things.

1: Barbarians are Bonus Action Starved.
It takes one bonus action just to enter a rage. Also, most Barbarians take GWM and/or Polearm Master if given the opportunity to do so. Finally, there are other non-attack ways to use your bonus action that can be just as effective as stabbing something, such as Dashing.

2. It's really damn easy to break rage.
It ends if you have not taken damage or attacked an enemy since your last turn. This means, believe it or not, DEX saves are just as problematic for Barbarans as WIS saves are. Perhaps even more so, because they only have to tie you up for one turn. Yes, getting feared sucks. But what sucks more is using a Frenzy, then dropping rage because some wizard hit you with Evard's Black Tentacles, and being stuck with an exhaustion level for the rest of the fight. Furthermore, there is the trap of thinking that you can safely dump WIS due to being immune to charm and Fear, but an illusion or even a Stun can still take you out of the fight, or at least make you drop your rage, making you significantly less deadly.

3: Not everything is about fighting. That's possibly the biggest shocker when talking about Barbarians. And really, when your options are talking to animals and some other enhanced ability or trying to inflict fear using your dump stat, you can easily see which options get you more mileage for your RP inclinations.

As for the thread question: The Frenzied Berserker is not technically "broken" (because it literally works, and the Barbarian chassis isn't a bad one) but it is totally underwhelming and mostly under-powered compared to the magnitude and scope of what other Barbarian options get.

 

[iserith]

I haven't played a berserker, but I've had several players play one in various games. I haven't seen any issue with it. We even have a little chuckle after some useful berserker feature comes into play, given the number of complaints about the subclass on the forums.

I think one thing to keep in mind with regard to the first level of exhaustion is that players shouldn't want to be making ability checks anyway - the fickle d20 is not their friend. To the extent they can achieve it given the context of the situation, going for automatic success is the smart play. When that's not an option due to the circumstances, there are ways to mitigate the disadvantage.

 

[Caliban]

2. It's really damn easy to break rage.
It ends if you have not taken damage or attacked an enemy since your last turn. This means, believe it or not, DEX saves are just as problematic for Barbarans as WIS saves are. Perhaps even more so, because they only have to tie you up for one turn. Yes, getting feared sucks. But what sucks more is using a Frenzy, then dropping rage because some wizard hit you with Evard's Black Tentacles, and being stuck with an exhaustion level for the rest of the fight. Furthermore, there is the trap of thinking that you can safely dump WIS due to being immune to charm and Fear, but an illusion or even a Stun can still take you out of the fight, or at least make you drop your rage, making you significantly less deadly.

Minor quibble - Evard's won't break Rage, as it damages you every round at the beginning of your turn. Even if you use your action to break free, you've already taken damage that turn.

 

[Corwin]

I'm playing an Eagle Totem Barbarian. Let me tell you about a few Barbarian things.

[...]

As for the thread question: The Frenzied Berserker is not technically "broken" (because it literally works, and the Barbarian chassis isn't a bad one) but it is totally underwhelming and mostly under-powered compared to the magnitude can scope of what other Barbarian options get.

I'm curious how you came to the conclusion at the end of your post here, given that you say you are playing a totem barbarian. Perhaps you simply left unspoken your experience playing a berserker with which to compare?

 

[Leatherhead]

Minor quibble - Evard's won't break Rage, as it damages you every round at the beginning of your turn. Even if you use your action to break free, you've already taken damage that turn.

For some reason I thought it was at the end of the turn. Oh well.