Giltonio_Santos
Hero
If I remember it correctly, the original warden was a defender. I believe at least one of your suggested forms should increase its ability to threat opponents and punish them for attacking the warden's allies.
Druid subclass: Circle of the Warden
- Thread starter cbwjm
- Start date
cbwjm
Seb-wejem
You're right, I didn't think to mention it but those are meant to be class specific damage increases even though I was using the same levels as cantrips. I will have to note it down as druid level. I used the cantrip levels as an easy reference, another option would be using the subclass levels, increasing damage at 6, 10, and 14.
1&2) I did think about giving scaling level bonuses to all of the forms, but I couldn't think of a good way to do it. Having level increases for all of the forms might make the warden fairly powerful if we allow the warden to manifest 2 forms at once. I do prefer having separate forms, however, another idea I had was similar to the totem barbarian. There would be a base primal form (perhaps damage resistance) and then at levels 2, 10, 14 there would be at least 3 abilities to choose from to allow the warden to customise his primal form.
3) Using wildshape as a guide, something I did think about when I first started was having 1 or 2 forms at levels 2, 10, and 14 that get added to the wardens repertoire. Perhaps we could still do this and expand to some utility forms at the same levels as new wildshape abilities open up: Form of the Ocean's Rage (underwater ability) at level 4 and Form of the Storm Raven (flight ability) at level 8. I'm sure there are some forms from 4e to draw on for inspiration.
4) Someone did mention temporary hit points, however, I think it is balanced against the fact that the druid retains the use of weapons, armour, and items that an animal form doesn't allow.
5) I do like this as an option, it could perhaps be the level 14 'capstone' instead of the regeneration ability. The regeneration could then become part of a new form with the same name as the current class ability.
I had thought about granting a modifier to AC for stone's endurance in a fashion similar to a bladesinger (which is where I gained much of the inspiration for form of the sirroco) but thought it might be a little too powerful. Speaking of power, do you think the form of the sirocco granting an additional attack is too powerful? I've thought of adding a condition requiring them to moving a certain distance before using the attack action but I'm not sure.
I do like the flavour text, I was planning on adding it in eventually, it helps players visualise what is happening when the warden assumes one of their forms.
Still working on the primal form feature, I've eliminated the Max. CR and Example columns from the Primal Forms table, keeping the Limitations, and added your idea for the Ocean's Rage and Storm Raven primal forms at levels 4 and 8 (respectively).
Per your concern about the extra attack action in Form of the Sirocco possibly being over-powered, by making it an improvement at 14th level it fits the spirit of the form without treading too heavily on the fighter's class feature.
The Circles of the Land subclass grants added spell options to those builds. I borrowed that idea for Form of the Ocean's Rage, granting the form one spell at 6th level and another one at 10th level.
Form of the Storm Raven is modeled after your Form of Storm's Thunder.
Both of the new forms were adapted from 4e Daily Evocations (Form of the Hunting Shark and Form of the Storm Eagle).
@Giltonio_Santos suggested finding a way to build more of the Defender role flavor into this subclass. I like that idea; perhaps it could be used in applying other level-improvements to the forms?
Primal Form
At 2nd level you do not gain Wild Shape. In place of Wild Shape, you gain the ability to use your bonus action to assume a form of primal power to enhance your combat abilities for 1 minute. You can use this feature twice at 2nd level. The number of times increases as you go up in druid class levels to three times when you reach 6th level, four times at 10th level, and five times at 14th level. You regain expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.
Your druid level determines the primal forms you can transform into, as shown in the Primal Forms table. At 2nd level, for example, you can transform into any one of the listed forms that does not allow you to gain the power of flight or to increase your swimming speed.
Primal Forms
Level Limitations
2nd No fly or swim speed
4th No fly speed ~Form of the Ocean’s Rage becomes available.
8th - ~Form of the Storm Raven becomes available.
Form of Storm’s Thunder.
Tendrils of mist drift around you, flickering with light, as faint rumbles of distant thunder emanate from your body.
On your turn, when you hit with a melee attack, you deal an extra 1d6 thunder damage. This increases to a d8 at 6th level, d10 at 10th level, and a d12 at 14th level.
Form of the Avalanche Unleashed.
You take on a resilient shell of rock and ice even as your presence on the battlefield slows your foes.
You have resistance to cold. The area within 10 feet of you is considered difficult terrain by other creatures. On a successful melee attack, a target must make a Strength saving throw against your spell DC or be knocked prone.
Form of Stone’s Endurance.
Your body becomes a fusion of flesh and rough stone, invigorated by your connection to the earth.
When you assume a primal form, you gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
Also, when you reach 10th level in this class, while in this primal form you can add your Constitution modifier to your AC.
Form of the Sirocco.
A haze of sand surrounds you, protecting you from harm and letting you move like a blinding desert wind.
While in your primal form, you increase your speed by 10 feet and you have advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks and Dexterity saving throws.
Upon reaching 14th level, when you use the Extra Attack action you can use your bonus action to make one additional attack, for a total of three attacks on that turn.
At 4th level, the following form becomes available:
Form of the Ocean’s Rage.
Your skin takes on the texture of a great shark’s, granting you mobility in water and the driven attack of an ocean predator.
You assume the primal form of the ocean’s rage until the end of the transformation. While you are in this form, you gain a swim speed equal to your speed and the ability to breath both air and water. In addition, while any ally is adjacent both to you and one of your enemies, that ally gains advantage on attack rolls against that target.
Beginning at 6th level, once per day while in this primal form, you can cast the spell tidal wave. This casting does not count against your spells known, but it does have the normal spell-level slot cost.
Beginning at 10th level, once per day while in this primal form, you can cast the spell maelstrom. This casting does not count against your spells known, but it does have the normal spell-level slot cost.
At 8th level, the following form becomes available:
Form of the Storm Raven.
Majestic black-feathered wings sprout from your back, and lightning crackles around your talon-like hands, as you leap into the air.
You gain the primal form of the storm raven until the end of the transformation. While you are in this form, you gain resistance to lightning. You can fly your speed as a move action, and must land at the end of the action.
When you hit a target with a ranged spell attack, you can add 1d8 lightning damage to any other damage the spell does. This damage increases to 1d10 lightning damage at 10th level, and to 1d12 lightning damage at 14th level.
You can stay in a primal form for 1 minute. You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a bonus action on your turn. You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die.
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Although I've been concentrating on getting Primal Forms into a reasonable draft form, the ideas from @rgoodbb and @cbwjm quoted above have been moving around in the background of my mind. I do think that cbwjm's original ideas for the 6th, 10th, and 14th level features are good as they are, but adding the Wisdom modifier as temporary hp while in primal form is appealing and makes a certain sense.
What if the Circle of the Warden was designed like the Circle of the Land subclass, with multiple types of warden? The 4e Player's Handbook 2 described the Earth Warden and the Wild Warden, and the 4e Primal Power book gave us the Life Warden and Storm Warden. They wouldn't necessarily have to be named after those specifically, but the notion of those tree-related powers in 4e ... it would be like playing a were-treant or something. Sweet!
I haven't looked at any of the Paragon Paths yet, so they haven't been included in my thinking here. I'm probably missing some good ideas because of that.
Anyway, back to some ideas for primal forms. Here's the current adaptations I've considered:
Form of the Avalanche Unleashed.
You take on a resilient shell of rock and ice even as your presence on the battlefield slows your foes.
You have resistance to cold. The area within 10 feet of you is considered difficult terrain by other creatures. On a successful melee attack, a target must make a Strength saving throw against your spell DC or be knocked prone.
Form of Stone’s Endurance.
Your body becomes a fusion of flesh and rough stone, invigorated by your connection to the earth.
When you assume a primal form, you gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
Also, when you reach 10th level in this class, while in this primal form you can add your Constitution modifier to your AC.
Form of the Ocean’s Rage.
Your skin takes on the texture of a great shark’s, granting you mobility in water and the driven attack of an ocean predator.
You assume the primal form of the ocean’s rage until the end of the transformation. While you are in this form, you gain a swim speed equal to your speed and the ability to breath both air and water. In addition, while any ally is adjacent both to you and one of your enemies, that ally gains advantage on attack rolls against that target.
Beginning at 6th level, once per day while in this primal form, you can cast the spell tidal wave. This casting does not count against your spells known, but it does have the normal spell-level slot cost.
Beginning at 10th level, while in this primal form, you can cast the spell maelstrom as if it was on your prepared spells list. The spell follows all of the normal rules for spells, however, it ends immediately if you are no longer in your primal form.
<>Editing: Per cbwjm's suggestions, I removed the 14th-level form features (overpowered) and added his wording for the 10th-level maelstrom feature (for clarity).
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cbwjm
Seb-wejem
Sorry I haven't been responding much, work has been busy and home has been filled with distractions.
I think the spells are fine and I think it is an interesting addition to a form. Since the spells use up a spell slot you may not even need to limit them to once while in the primal form. I think you could change the wording to be:
I would also probably limit the spells to a maximum of 5th spell level to somewhat keep it in line with the bonus spells of other classes that only allow up to 5th.
The question would then become whether or not the addition of the spells, even if only able to be cast once while in the form, would make the form too powerful. A swim speed and the ability to breath air and water would be fine with the spell additions but I do wonder if the addition of granting advantage (albeit to someone who is next to both you and the target) would make the form a little too powerful. I guess it would have to be something to be playtested.
As for making the circle of the warden like the land druid, it's an interesting thought. Would that mean that you select Storm and then have forms and abilities related to storms?
I like your revision regarding the maelstrom feature.
What you say about keeping the spells below 6th level makes sense; 1st - 5th level spells are the standard limitation. [I have a crush on those investiture spells and keep trying to sneak them in where they don't belong, so I need to be reined in on them. My DM is so mean: he won't let me take investiture of ice as my 1st-level spell with the Magic Initiative feat.
]I'll just remove those from the forms, and edit your wording for the maelstrom feature.
About the warden / land circles thing, the answer is yes. There are themes in the 4e class that build along certain lines, such as the forms and features related to trees or storms. There looks to be more than enough material in there to create sub-subclasses for the warden.
cbwjm
Seb-wejem
I like your revision regarding the maelstrom feature.
What you say about keeping the spells below 6th level makes sense; 1st - 5th level spells are the standard limitation. [I have a crush on those investiture spells and keep trying to sneak them in where they don't belong, so I need to be reined in on them. My DM is so mean: he won't let me take investiture of ice as my 1st-level spell with the Magic Initiative feat.
I'll just remove those from the forms, and edit your wording for the maelstrom feature.
About the warden / land circles thing, the answer is yes. There are themes in the 4e class that build along certain lines, such as the forms and features related to trees or storms. There looks to be more than enough material in there to create sub-subclasses for the warden.
I agree about those investiture spells, they're definitely some of the cooler spells available in the elemental evil book.
So if we go with the Warden theme feature we could have, as an example (I would have to go back and have a better look at the effects):
Level 2: Choose your primal power source
Earth: You gain the form of Stone's Endurance and the form of X.
Wild: Something to do with the fey or forests?
Life: Something to do with healing?
Storm: You gain the form of Storm's Thunder
I think having 2 forms to choose from at least in the beginning would be best, unless at levels 6, 10, and 14 their primal form becomes more powerful
Level 6: Extra Attack (I think this should still be the 6th level feature)
Level 10: Enhanced forms
Level 14: Depending on how the forms are managed. If able to choose from multiple forms (the more interesting option) then Primal Convergence. Spend two uses to activate two forms at once. If only a single enhanced form then something to be determined at a later date.
Good point. Although 4e had a feat option for genasi to manifest more than one elemental form at a time, which inspired my consideration of the druid warden being able to assume two primal forms at the same time, it's over-powered/unbalanced for any class.
Let's strike that idea.
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