D&D 5E Why I Am Starting to Prefer 4d6 Drop the Lowest Over the Default Array.

[Lanefan]

FWIW, I share your preference for 18-15-11-11-10-7 over 12-12-12-12-12-12 or 15-14-13-12-10-8; I think it is quite an interesting array and requires interesting choices to be made.

Looking at those arrays again I realize that the more interesting ones have lower total bonus values, when approached from that angle.

12-12-12-12-12-12 has total bonus of +6 (+1 on each stat)
15-14-13-12-10-8 has total bonus of +5 (2,2,1,1,0,-1)
18-15-11-11-10-7 has total bonus of +4 (4,2,0,0,0,-2)

No-one can accuse us of powergaming the bonuses!

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Since this thread has ballooned to 16 pages now. I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in again. I really like 4d6 drop lowest a lot, but it has it's issues. The main issue is that you can get wildly unbalanced power levels between characters. This is a terrible thing for everybody including the DM.

I have played in campaigns when every player was way OP and it was a lot of fun.

I have played in campaigns when every player was well below average and it was also fun.

As long as the characters are roughly equal, it's all good. The DM can adjust up or down as needed. I have never seen a campaign with unbalanced characters work out very well. The trick is to figure out a way to level the playing field. I have seen some very good ideas in here about how to do that.

5E's system is robust and varied enough that minor stat differences are unlikely to make much difference in play. How about a challenge? You roll up a party of four PCs using 4d6 drop lowest. Then assign them all races and classes (I'll do it or someone else can if they want to and are good at party construction; I don't care). We'll see if any of the PCs winds up being redundant and not "roughly equal" to the others in terms of usefulness to the party. IME it doesn't often happen.

There will be some subjective value judgments involved (e.g. some people value DPR above all else; what does "roughly equal" mean?; if a Sharpshooter benefits from his own natural Dex 18 AND from a Bless spell cast by the War Cleric, are they contributing "roughly equally"?) but at least we'll be talking about something concrete and can point to whether or not stats are the determinative factors.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Looking at those arrays again I realize that the more interesting ones have lower total bonus values, when approached from that angle.

12-12-12-12-12-12 has total bonus of +6 (+1 on each stat)
15-14-13-12-10-8 has total bonus of +5 (2,2,1,1,0,-1)
18-15-11-11-10-7 has total bonus of +4 (4,2,0,0,0,-2)

No-one can accuse us of powergaming the bonuses!

Well, they could. Here's an argument that does so, IMO with some plausibility:

Because each class in 5E primarily leverages a single stat, often with a secondary stat of some important, the valuation of an array should be based 50% on the highest stat bonus (because it will probably go to the primary stat), 20% on the next highest bonus (it will probably go to the secondary stat or else Con), and 10% each on the bonus of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest stats. The 6th highest stat can usually be stashed somewhere where it will make very little difference, e.g. Strength on a Dex-based archer.

Under this scheme,

12-12-12-12-12-12 has a total value of +1 (0.5, 0.2, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1).
15-14-13-12-10-8 has a total value of +1.6 (1.0, 0.4, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0).
18-15-11-11-10-7 has a total value of +2.4 (2.0, 0.4, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0).

I'm not going to lie, I really think the final array *is* more attractive to a powergamer, and the formula above, crude as it is, expresses roughly why. 18-15-11-11-10-7 is attractive to me partly because I am instinctively powergaming the bonuses.

But I also think it's a genuinely interesting array. I would rather play 18-15-11-11-10-7 than 30-30-30-30-30-30, for example, because all 30s is boring and munchkin.

 

[Ashkelon]

Maybe elaborate on what kind of point buy you are using? I assumed it was the kind that costed an amount to proceed to the next stat which is different than the phb method?

It would be the same as the PHB. 1 point for each increases up to a score of 13. A 14 and 15 each cost two more points. You cannot buy a 16 or higher, those can only be acquired through rolls and racial increases.

So if you rolled a 6 for strength and wanted a 15, it would cost 7 points to get to a 13, and 4 more for a 15. In total it would cost 11 of your 17 points to get a 15 starting strength pre racial if you rolled a 6 for it initially.

On the other hand, if you rolled a 14 for Wisdom and wanted a 15 wisdom, that would only cost 2 of your 17 points.

 

[Ashkelon]

[MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION]

I find it amusing that you believe the array with the 18 and the 7 is not the power gamer one. I looked at it and immediately assumed it would be what any power gamer would take.

After all, in 5e there is very little use for all 6 attributes for most PCs. And specializing often provides far greater advantages than generalizing. So the player with the 18 in their primary attribute and the 7 in their dump attribute has simultaneously maximized their effectiveness for their given primary skill and combat related features while minimizing the rolls they effectively don't care about.

I would actually say the player with the 12s across the board would be the best roleplayer as they are playing a woefully disadvantaged PC as 12s in each stat makes you mediocre at everything and makes for a rather ineffective character.

 

[FrogReaver]

@Lanefan

...

I would actually say the player with the 12s across the board would be the best roleplayer as they are playing a woefully disadvantaged PC as 12s in each stat makes you mediocre at everything and makes for a rather ineffective character.

Playing a disadvantaged PC doesn't make one a role player. It makes you a try hard@

 

[LordEntrails]

Want to know what I find funny? That this thread is on page 17.

Horse. Beat. Dead.

 

[FrogReaver]

Statistically they will be stronger than regular point buy and weaker than 4d6 drop lowest. I just did 8 rolls to prove it, but you are welcome to do more testing if you so desire. Here are the results of the rolls, before allocating the 17 remaining points.

9, 13, 6, 13, 10, 9

8, 14, 11, 12, 10, 14

8, 12, 10, 11, 12, 10

14, 10, 8, 11, 14, 10

8, 10, 8, 9, 5, 16

9, 15, 16, 13, 5, 13

16, 14, 13, 12, 12, 9

13, 9, 13, 6, 10, 11

Only one of those rolls ends up worse off than standard point buy, but it also had a pre racial 16 which is not achievable through point buy.

So I looked at these stats and what could be done with the 17 point buy. It's not bad.

 

[Zardnaar]

Want to know what I find funny? That this thread is on page 17.

Horse. Beat. Dead.

Well apparently any thread I make is good for at least a dozen pages.

Its a gift. The gift of Zard.

 

[Lanefan]

I find it amusing that you believe the array with the 18 and the 7 is not the power gamer one. I looked at it and immediately assumed it would be what any power gamer would take.

After all, in 5e there is very little use for all 6 attributes for most PCs. And specializing often provides far greater advantages than generalizing. So the player with the 18 in their primary attribute and the 7 in their dump attribute has simultaneously maximized their effectiveness for their given primary skill and combat related features while minimizing the rolls they effectively don't care about.

Depends where you put the 18 and the 7, doesn't it? Depending on what I've got in mind, the placement of the '7' is very important.

For a Fighter - the 18 goes to either Str or Con; the 7 goes into one of Int (if I want something boring as hell to play), Wis (plan? what plan? hella fun!), or Cha (if I want to go stereotypical)
For a Cleric - the 18 goes to Wis and the 7 goes wherever, but I probably wouldn't play a Cleric with this array as all the other classes offer so much more fun with it
For a Rogue - the 18 goes to Dex or maybe Cha if I want to try a Locke Lamora type; the 7 probably goes in Wis or maybe Str if I want to play a hench-heavy game
For a Wizard - absolute ironclad guarantee that every single time I'm going Int 18 Wis 7, and my party better bring their flame-retardant suits!

I would actually say the player with the 12s across the board would be the best roleplayer as they are playing a woefully disadvantaged PC as 12s in each stat makes you mediocre at everything and makes for a rather ineffective character.

12s across the board makes one a good jack of all trades (you're +1 on everything) and master of none. As a secondary or backup character in a party this could be very handy.

Now 10's across the board for a whole bunch of +0 - that's truly mediocre.

Lan-"how high is the ceiling?"-efan