D&D 5E Warlock in party with Quasit breaking story

[Waterbizkit]

2) The familiar is evil alignment. While the warlock has a great level of control over it, don't forget its alignment. Have it twist its orders, to lead the warlock astray. Don't let the warlock treat his familiar as just a class feature. You should run it as a non-player character run by the DM with its own agenda, albeit one that the warlock has a great level of control over.

So I generally agree with everything else you mentioned, except this. The Warlocks familiar in fact doesn't have it's own agenda. It can't twist it's orders to lead the Warlock astray... because it's not a free-willed creature.

A Warlocks Imp, Psuedodragon, Sprite or Quasit isn't actually an Imp, Psuedodragon, Quasit or Sprite... It's a fiendish, fey, or celestial spirit that the Warlock decided will take the form of one of those creatures, it isn't actually one of them. This is part of what was discussed earlier in the thread and a common point of confusion when discussing this topic.

Because of this however the familiar is completely subservient to the Warlock. It can't disobey them, it can't mislead them, it can't bristle at being mistreated. It exists only because the Warlock has made it so and it's very form and type are completely at the whim of the Warlock. The first time it's summoned the Warlock can decide it's a celestial spirit that will take the form of an Imp. The next time? Perhaps it'll be a fey Quasit. The time after that? Maybe it'll be a fiendish Sprite... It's all at the Warlocks choosing and the familiar has nothing to say in the matter.

Now, an actual pact with an actual creature? That's an entirely different ball game, but that's not what the Pact of the Chain is.

Anyway, that's it from me. I should really be working right now...

 

[Cyrinishad]

So I generally agree with everything else you mentioned, except this. The Warlocks familiar in fact doesn't have it's own agenda. It can't twist it's orders to lead the Warlock astray... because it's not a free-willed creature.

A Warlocks Imp, Psuedodragon, Sprite or Quasit isn't actually an Imp, Psuedodragon, Quasit or Sprite... It's a fiendish, fey, or celestial spirit that the Warlock decided will take the form of one of those creatures, it isn't actually one of them. This is part of what was discussed earlier in the thread and a common point of confusion when discussing this topic.

Because of this however the familiar is completely subservient to the Warlock. It can't disobey them, it can't mislead them, it can't bristle at being mistreated. It exists only because the Warlock has made it so and it's very form and type are completely at the whim of the Warlock. The first time it's summoned the Warlock can decide it's a celestial spirit that will take the form of an Imp. The next time? Perhaps it'll be a fey Quasit. The time after that? Maybe it'll be a fiendish Sprite... It's all at the Warlocks choosing and the familiar has nothing to say in the matter.

Now, an actual pact with an actual creature? That's an entirely different ball game, but that's not what the Pact of the Chain is.

Anyway, that's it from me. I should really be working right now...

Well, although Flamestrike is conflating the Monstrous Manual info with the Pact of the Chain info... I am less certain that any summoned Familiar doesn't have it's own agenda. Specifically, because it is a summoned Celestial, Fey, or Fiendish spirit, that (as referenced by the Find Familiar spell) acts independently of you. It is compelled to obey your commands by virtue of the conjuration spell that summoned it, but that doesn't preclude the fact that it is an otherwise independent Celestial, Fey, or Fiendish spirit...

You're right that it can't disobey the summoners direct commands, but that's about it... It's not a construct or automaton, it's a planar spirit that is being temporarily bound by the conjurer to take a familiar form... if that spirit is a Fiendish spirit, it is most certainly evil... and any of the familiar spirits could certainly have their own agenda. The only thing that restricts the familiar's actions is the direct commands of the summoner... That is a very narrow compulsion on a planar being, that leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

 

[Waterbizkit]

True enough.

There's certainly a lot of wiggle room for the DM and player to decide just what personality, motivations and goals the familiar might have, if any at all. It's something I would encourage people to have fun with, I mean that's hopefully the idea of why we all sit down to play in the first place. That said, it's still different than having, say, an actual Imp for a familiar who at any point could simply take it's leave if it was tired of or otherwise dissatisfied with it's master.

I suppose if anything this means it's a point that needs to be discussed beforehand so that the player isn't suddenly blindsided should their familiar start misbehaving in some unforeseen way. You want familiars to be flavorful, I do anyway, but it could be construed as overstepping to have them actively working against the Warlock.

 

[Flamestrike]

Because (the familiar is a spirit conojured by the welock) the familiar is completely subservient to the Warlock.

Agreed. But this doesn't mean that it lacks free will. It just means that the Warlocks will can override the Familiars. A command to 'do X' contains a lot of leeway on how X is to be achieved.

Example: A Warlock orders its Imp to 'Kill that Orc!'. If the Imp lacked free will, it couldn't act on those orders. We instead presume the Imp has enough free will to decide how best to act on those orders (subject to its own memory, logic, reasoning and experience).

It could poison the Orc. It could cause an avalanche on the Orc. It could try and rip the Orcs throat out. It could try and persuade the party barbarian to stab the Orc. It could use any of a nigh infinite methods to do what it is commanded to do. Its end goal is only (one dead Orc). Presumably the order is 'Kill the Orc as quickly as possible', but bear in mind the order itself didnt set a time frame for completion.

The warlock can command the Imp familiar to do X, but the familiar (being Evilly aligned) can subvert those orders (a LE Imp could choose to do so by following those orders literally, and against what the Warlock actually intended).

Consider a Warlock who has a rival in town, who has just beaten him to the position of Town Mayor (the Warlock is the deputy and if the Mayor dies, he gets the title). The rival is also a former lover. The Warlock wants her to be happy for her whole life despite this rivalry, and (rather casually) after the election, orders his Imp to 'Take care of her'.

What does the Familiar do in this case? It could ask for clarification on those orders (take care of her... or take care of her?). It is under no compulsion to seek clarification from the Warlock, and may kill her (despite the Warlock just wanting her looked after and pampered) or vice versa.

It can't disobey them, it can't mislead them, it can't bristle at being mistreated.

Source? The text only tells me it cant disobey him. It doesnt tell me the familiar knows the mind of the Warlock and knows his intent, or that it isnt free to follow those orders subject to a certain level of of initiative.

The rules definitely say nothing about not complaining about its service (it might follow them quite grudgingly complaining as it does so), or even possibly misleading the Warlock (aside from in the absence of some very stringent orders not to - orders that cant be interpreted differently)

The Warlocks familiar is a gift from his (usually dark) master remember. His master may also have an agenda at work here - corrupting the warlock further, or even getting the Warlock killed to claim his soul.

Im not saying here that one should us the Warlocks class feature to troll him and kill his PC (although a plot involving conflict between the Warlocks patron and the Warlock involving the familiar could be quite interesting if done correctly and not as a 'screw you warlock' thing that strips class features from him arbitrarily) nor am I saying that a DM should run the Familiar like an antagonist or make it more of a pain in the backside than a useful class feature.

Only that a (reasonable) interpretation of the class feature is that it (in effect) creates a loyal and obedient (but evil) NPC as a gift from (a probably even more evil) master. Within the scope of that definition, many twists are possible with a bit of imagination.

At a minimum the Warlocks patron could decide to grant the Imp a modicum of free will, or tire of having to constantly replace it (the spirit itself might resent the Warlock for getting it killed all the time - the familiar dying might have consequences for it in its own home plane or other 'metaphysical' consequences).

Im of the view that the DM should play the familiar as a (loyal but evil) NPC, complete with a personalty of its own. The Warlock player plays the Warlock; its the DMs responsibility to play everyone else (barring other PCs of course). I use the same guideline with Simulacrums and summoned creatures, created undead and so forth. I might let the Warlock run them from time to time to save me time, but I'll often simply have the warlock issue orders to the summoned/ created creatures (or familiar, or undead or whatever) and then interpret those orders (as the creature) and go from there, taking actions the creature thinks are appropriate under those orders (and within their parameters, as interpreted by the creature).

 

[The Human Target]

All I came to say is, you aren't being a bad DM and shouldn't ​feel bad about having the problem.

Stuff like this is a real pain and can really mess up a game.

 

[Harzel]

(here's that situation shortly: he had repelling blast. He hit a huge creature (as big as a five story building basically) and wanted it to move 10 feet back. I said he can't move something weighing hundreds of tons 10 feet back with a simple spell like that. He said because the invocation doesn't specify how big the creature must be then it should work on a creature of any size. We argued over it for half an hour. In the end he agreed with me reluctantly but requested to unchoose repelling blast).

My advice is to rescind this ruling. Of the various spells and abilities that can move a creature involuntarily, some have an explicit size constraint (for example Battle Master Pushing Attack) and some do not (for example Thunderwave and Repelling Blast). If you maintain your ruling for Repelling Blast, you will have to consider how to rule on the others that, RAW, are unrestricted. Also, if you maintain your ruling, I think you owe it to your player to establish the limits on the ability precisely (if you haven't already done so).

If you do want to have some creatures that cannot be affected, IMO the best way to do this is by giving them a special ability (which I think someone already mentioned). And probably best to limit this to your own custom creations and telegraph/hint at it in your description of the creature when it is encountered or when some NPC describes it.

(And this gives you an opportunity to fall on your sword w.r.t. one issue before discussing the quasit familiar with him, which I think there is good reason to adjust somewhat - see my next post. )

 

[briggart]

Agreed. But this doesn't mean that it lacks free will. It just means that the Warlocks will can override the Familiars. A command to 'do X' contains a lot of leeway on how X is to be achieved.
[...]

I personally would not play it this way. IMO the statement "it always obeys your commands" means that for practical purpose the familiar is a bot lacking free will. If the player is not on board with the familiar having a personality of its own, the only thing that a DM would get from exploiting the gray areas in the interactions between the familiar and the warlock, is that the next time the player will give a more elaborated and detailed command to make sure the familiar actually obeys the given command in both letter and intent. At which point the DM can either look deeper for additional leeway and start an arms race, or drop the issue altogether, in which case I feel it's better not to start it in the first place.

Another reason while this to me feels like a "gotcha" moment, is that players don't have any actual experience of the familiar, while the warlock lives with it 24/7 and likely has a good understanding of its peculiarities, idiosyncrasies, pet peeves, etc. and should be able to adjust its interactions with the familiar accordingly.

If the player is on board, there is a lot of potential for RP in the interaction between a familiar and its master, but the couple of times one of my players had a special familiar, I was happy to let them treat it as an extension of their character.

 

[Harzel]

About the quasit familiar... I certainly agree, as has been said by several others, that having a familiar that is a very, very good scout is an intended feature of PotC, and you're better off rolling with it than trying to nerf it. There are a number of things others have mentioned that you can throw into your adventures so that quasit scouting is not always 100% effective. Use them where they make sense in your world, but let scouting be a significant benefit a lot of times, too.

That said, I think it is worthwhile to summarize the situation with quasit familiars in order to clarify and emphasize some things.

First and foremost, as Mearls noted in a tweet that someone linked, the MM quasit familiar and a quasit familiar from a 'standard' casting of Find Familiar are two separate things. So let's discuss them separately.

MM Quasit Familiar

1. The MM quasit familiar is a variant, that is, it is an optional rule. Each DM can decide whether to allow it in their world, and disallowing it is not a nerf to the intent of any class features.
2. If the DM does allow MM quasit familiars, they will need to decide whether Find Familiar can be used to summon one. (I would call this a 'nonstandard' casting and have the MM sidebar override parts of the Find Familiar spell description as a case of specific-beats-general.) The description in the MM says they are 'easy to summon', but as far as I can see, there is no other particularly obviously appropriate way to do that. There are some spells that might, at a DM's discretion, be used, but they all seem pretty heavy duty for summoning a CR 1 creature. I might be missing something.
3. If these are allowed and a PC finds some way to engage one, then (unless of course the DM chooses otherwise) you don't get the benefits without the drawbacks. For reference, here is the entire description from the MM (underline emphases are mine).

Mortal spellcasters interested in extraplanar familiars find quasits easy to summon and eager to serve. The quasit plays the role of an obsequious servant. It serves its master well, but it goads the mortal to greater and greater acts of chaos and evil. Such quasits have the following trait. Familiar. The quasit can serve another creature as a familiar, forming a Telepathic Bond with its willing master. While the two are bonded, the master can sense what the quasit senses as long as they are within 1 mile of each other. While the quasit is within 10 feet of its master, the master shares the quasit's Magic Resistance trait. At any time and for any reason, the quasit can end its service as a familiar, ending the Telepathic Bond.

Quasit Familiar via PotC and Find Familiar

1. These familiars are as described in the Find Familiar, spell description. In particular, telepathic communication is limited to 100 feet, and the familiar 'always obeys your commands'. They have the standard quasit abilities (invisibility, shapchange, etc.), but not the attributes described in the sidebar.
2. Whether the familiar is actually a quasit or is, like standard familiars, a celestial/fey/fiend in the form of a quasit is, I guess, up for some debate. Some posters have pointed out that the celestial/fey/fiend assertion is followed by 'instead of a beast', which might be interpreted as this not applying to the special PotC familiars. However, the description of PotC specifically says the special familiars are 'special forms' as contrasted with the 'normal forms' and 'form' is exactly the word used in the Find Familiar spell description to draw the distinction between the appearance/stats of a familiar and its fundamental nature. My money would be on the intent being that even the PotC special familiars are celestial/fey/fiend spirits within a different form.
3. There also seem to be some varying opinions about whether "always obeys your commands" leaves the familiar free to have its own agenda. IMO, a familiar with its own distinct agenda that runs counter to the PC's desires/interests (because the PC hasn't been explicit enough) would in general be an uninteresting and to the player somewhat to very annoying distraction. For a particular story in a particular world I suppose it might be interesting, but it seems to me this is something that players should be apprised of even before characters are built.

So my summary for the OP is: 1) decide whether you want to have MM variant quasit familiars in your game; 2) if so, talk to your player and have them decide whether, with the distinction made clear, they really want one.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

To player (in private): "That's a pretty cool character. I liked that invisibility trick with the <fill in campaign anecdote you enjoyed>. But I think we goofed a bit. I didn't realize when we were getting your character ready for the campaign that his abilities might not work with this campaign the way it was intended. How would you feel about doing something a bit different? One thing that might be cool would be if we turn this character into a mostly NPC antagonist, while you can make another character that fits better on the heroes' side. If you want, you could play him some times as a foil to the parties plans, and let them see just how cool those abilities are from the other side. We'll have to figure out how to have him betray the party so it will have the best psychological effect..."

 

[transtemporal]

Basically, the pact of the chain warlock familiar is the ultimate scout. Theres not a heck of a lot you can do about it, especially in an open outdoors setting with no cover.

But indoors, not so much. It can scout out corridors and open areas easy enough. But highly populated areas with closed doors? Doors that open by themselves will draw attention and while enemies might chalk the first few times to the wind, or mischeievous colleagues, eventually they're going to realise theres something up and act appropriately. Also remember resting enemies have nothing better to do with their action than make perception checks, so someone eventually is going to notice. Its just a matter of time before they do.