D&D 5E "Auction-style" magic shoppes

[Shiroiken]

Slight quibble. I played 1e forever, and never had magic item shops.

*snip*

You could do what you want in your home game, but I never thought of magic shops as part of 1e.

Bigger quibble. Selling magic items required a buyer... which implies a shop. While I almost never had magic items available for sale in 1E (except for the occasional huckster who may be selling snake oil instead), you can't discount that many people did allow the purchase of magic items as far back as 1E (maybe even OD&D, but I never played).

This is an important distinction, because with the sheer amount of gold you could recover in many 1e games, if you used those "gold sale value" tables in the DMG improperly, then you would have a Monty Haul campaign very, very quickly. As it is, when I convert 1e modules to 5e, I have to downgrade the amount of treasure.

I do the same. I find that no more than 10% of the given coins/gems/jewelry should be used, and no more than half of the magic items (heavily modified for the new rarity). I usually used less, but any more would break the economy of my campaign.

 

[Ancalagon]

The devil is *clearly* in the details (soooo many details)

BUT

I think that the basic assertion is *very sound*, i.e. that in a city where a lot of magic is available (say the Yellow City in Yoon-Suin, or Sigil), an auction system is the most rational and likely solution. Certain magical items are very common and they sort have a fixed price (healing potion for the win). But for the majority of items, they will only show up rarely, and a periodic auction is the best way to get the item sold for a fair price.

In my campaign there is an auction house that sells all sorts of things, and there is a monthly sale, although so far the players have been using the auction house as a way to sell magical curios, (such as a mechanical heart), not buy things. I haven't bothered making a "system" for it (never had to) mind you.

 

[CapnZapp]

Here's an idea for y'all.

I was thinking what if we could simplify the price multiplier and get rid of all (most) of the math?

How about this simple routine, that uses two six-sided dice.

The MULTIPLIER is a number ranging from 1-12. 1 means half price. All other numbers mean "subtract 1, then multiply with list price". So our +1 Longsword would cost 500 gp (MULT 1), 1000 gp (MULT 2), 2000 gp (MULT 3) and so on.

Here's how to generate the MULT: roll 2d6. Finished.

Then, each "tick" (visit, week, or whatever), you perform the following little routine.

A. Roll two six-sided dice.
B1. If the smallest of the dice is higher than MULT, the item disappears (is sold etc)
B2. if the largest die is less than MULT, MULT is set to its level
B3. if the largest die is equal to MULT, MULT is decreased by 1
B4. if the largest die is higher than MULT, MULT stays unchanged

A few examples:

I roll two dice and get 6 and 3. The initial MULT is 6+3=9 for a 8000 gp asking price the first week.

At the next week, I again roll two dice: 5 and 3. This is case B2 and the MULT is changed to 5. Asking price 4000 gp
The next week, I roll 1 and 5. This is case B3 and MULT goes down to 4. Asking price 3000 gp
The next week, I roll 5 and 4. This is case B4 and MULT stays unchanged.
The next week, I roll 6 and 6. This is case B1 and the item disappears.

A few more sample rolls I just did, to show the progression. All for our +1 Longsword. Assuming the players characters never buy anything, of course.
6 5000 gp
2 1000 gp
-

8 7000 gp
3 2000 gp
3 2000 gp
-

5 4000 gp
4 3000 gp
3 2000 gp
2 1000 gp
1 500 gp
-

9 8000 gp
4 3000 gp
4 3000 gp
3 2000 gp
2 1000 gp
-

11 10000 gp
6 5000 gp
5 4000 gp
1 500 gp
-

A quite nice progression for such a simple mechanism, wouldn't you say?

Note how the "exponentiality" comes built-in. No tables or squaring math needed

 

[TheCosmicKid]

The MULTIPLIER is a number ranging from 1-12. 1 means half price. All other numbers mean "subtract 1, then multiply with list price". So our +1 Longsword would cost 500 gp (MULT 1), 1000 gp (MULT 2), 2000 gp (MULT 3) and so on.

This calculation seems unnecessarily complex. Why not just have MULT be a multiplier? Speaking for myself, I know that in practice I'd forget to subtract 1 a lot of the time.

 

[Ancalagon]

Let's start thinking about the details - the biggest one for me is the frequency of the auction.

There are *huge* security risks involved in the sale of magical items. The auction house has to have an impeccable reputation, ironclad security *and* assassins on retainer to murder anyone daring to steal their stuff. Their commission is probably fairly high.

There may also be buying agents - people who purchase stuff on behalf of someone else. They too would need a good reputation/security, although perhaps not as much as the auction house.

So those are the people running the show... and it seems unlikely to me that they would operate in anything less than a small city with lots of traffic. (small town is more the "alchemist has a few potions in the back" scenario...) There is also a consideration of the *supply* of magical items. There are 3 sources really:

1: a spellcaster making an item and putting it for sale because she needs money (it may be what they do for a living). I can see this happening, but given the time involved, uncommon and rare items are the only realistic possibilities. Since they want money, such items would be ones that are likely to have a good demand (ie are *useful*) but this will be limited by the magical "recipes" the caster has access to. Of course these items will not be sold below cost so there is a cap to how low the price can go.

2: Someone (noble, retired adventurer, spellcaster etc). with an item they've had for a while unloading it for cash. Items like these could be a lot more powerful/rarer than #1, buuuut it is unlikely that someone would sell something they need, so the *utility* of these items may be a bit less. An old feeble mage isn't going to sell an item that is boosting his constitution for example.

It should be noted that under this scenario, an item that is very rare but without a lot of utility could be sold for a lot less than the "list" price, especially if the seller needs cash fast.

3: Adventurers coming town in with loot from that tomb they just explored, or offloading "lesser" items they don't need anymore (this is less likely in the "standard" 5e economy)

So how often does 1, 2, 3 happen? It can't be *that* common. But once you've figured this out, you can give more rational thought to how often the magical item auction happens. My gut feeling is that weekly is too frequent, but I haven't done a formal analysis.

 

[Lanefan]

Bigger quibble. Selling magic items required a buyer...

True enough...

which implies a shop.

Not necessarily. It's easy to rationalize that much of the trade in magic items might well take place directly between those who have made a career out of finding them: adventurers, meeting in guildhouses or pubs or wherever.

Now there can certainly still be one or more magic "shops", but there doesn't have to be to still have a magic item economy.

While I almost never had magic items available for sale in 1E (except for the occasional huckster who may be selling snake oil instead), you can't discount that many people did allow the purchase of magic items as far back as 1E (maybe even OD&D, but I never played).

We've always had (randomly determined) items available for sale in our 1e games. It's a logical extension of two (and a half) fairly basic premises:

1. The PCs are going to find items they can't use and want to sell
2. There are other adventurers out there who have also found items they can't use and want to sell
2.5. Items are occasionally commissioned to be constructed/enchanted by artificers and then never picked up, the artificers have no use for them and thus sell them

The idea of buyable magic items only breaks if there's too much available (or, like with 3e, everything is available) and-or the available items aren't randomized.

Lanefan

 

[CapnZapp]

This calculation seems unnecessarily complex. Why not just have MULT be a multiplier? Speaking for myself, I know that in practice I'd forget to subtract 1 a lot of the time.

Sure, but remember, I'm aiming for a price range of 0,5x to 10x

 

[CapnZapp]

Let's start thinking about the details - the biggest one for me is the frequency of the auction.

Not sure if it changes anything, but just for the record: there isn't any actual auctioneering involved.

but I haven't done a formal analysis.

Let me offer an analogy. You know about Drake's Equation? A way to calculate the probability of (other) intelligent life in the universe.

You multiply the probability of a star forming, and the probability of the planet forming in the habitable zone, and the probability life exists long enough to become intelligent and so on and so on.

Lots of variables, in other words. Sounds like a complex calculation.

Yet, it eventually ends up with the question "Do you believe there's intelligent life in the universe, yes or no?"

That is, in the end, the probability is either 0 or 1.

Same thing, really with this issue here.

Do you want magic shoppes in your game, yes or no?

Either you do, and then the answer is they exist and all security issues have been taken care of...

Or you don't, and there aren't any magic item economy.

Either way, no analysis necessary

 

[CapnZapp]

There are *huge* security risks involved in the sale of magical items. The auction house has to have an impeccable reputation, ironclad security *and* assassins on retainer to murder anyone daring to steal their stuff.

A magic shoppe, like any storefront really, needs only as much security as their goods warrant.

If all you have for offer is Healing Potions and the like, you don't need much better security than any regular General Store.

Any magic shoppe that's known for its stock of +1 weapons and such would probably have a Stone Golem or a Shield Guardian at stand-by, just in case. Or just a dozen well-armed employees, or whatever.

 

[Ancalagon]

A magic shoppe, like any storefront really, needs only as much security as their goods warrant.

If all you have for offer is Healing Potions and the like, you don't need much better security than any regular General Store.

Any magic shoppe that's known for its stock of +1 weapons and such would probably have a Stone Golem or a Shield Guardian at stand-by, just in case. Or just a dozen well-armed employees, or whatever.

I agree with you, but this was for a major auction house I was envisioning...

*however*

Not sure if it changes anything, but just for the record: there isn't any actual auctioneering involved.

But then why did you call it an auction?

From what I can see, the item is held by the shop (which takes a commission?) and the selling price is slowly lowered until it sells. Is this the model?