D&D 5E "Auction-style" magic shoppes

[CapnZapp]

the selling price is slowly lowered until it sells. Is this the model?

That's the idea, so it's more kind of a "reverse auction". (But still no actual auction)

The point is to downplay the importance of having objectively correct prices, and to turn the fact that an item can be much more valuable for one character than the next from a liability into an asset.

If you really want an item, you might be prepared to purchase it at a premium, to avoid the risk of the item disappearing.

Items you don't particularly need you can afford to play it cool and wait for the price to go down.

The point is to make the system self-regulating. A fixed price list runs the risk of getting some items wrong, underestimating their power and utility, and therefore throwing balance out of whack by being items you can buy "too cheap".

With a system like this, prices are always fluctuating, and an item can't be reliably picked up "too cheap" - you need both luck and a steady hand to pick up something "too cheap".

But if you manage to wait it out, chances are you didn't particularly need it anyway, so then the fact you got it cheap doesn't throw balance off as much.

That's the idea anyhow...

 

[Fanaelialae]

I really like this idea of a reverse auction magic shop.

Here's an idea for y'all.

I was thinking what if we could simplify the price multiplier and get rid of all (most) of the math?

How about this simple routine, that uses two six-sided dice.

The MULTIPLIER is a number ranging from 1-12. 1 means half price. All other numbers mean "subtract 1, then multiply with list price". So our +1 Longsword would cost 500 gp (MULT 1), 1000 gp (MULT 2), 2000 gp (MULT 3) and so on.

Here's how to generate the MULT: roll 2d6. Finished.

Then, each "tick" (visit, week, or whatever), you perform the following little routine.

A. Roll two six-sided dice.
B1. If the smallest of the dice is higher than MULT, the item disappears (is sold etc)
B2. if the largest die is less than MULT, MULT is set to its level
B3. if the largest die is equal to MULT, MULT is decreased by 1
B4. if the largest die is higher than MULT, MULT stays unchanged

A few examples:

I roll two dice and get 6 and 3. The initial MULT is 6+3=9 for a 8000 gp asking price the first week.

At the next week, I again roll two dice: 5 and 3. This is case B2 and the MULT is changed to 5. Asking price 4000 gp
The next week, I roll 1 and 5. This is case B3 and MULT goes down to 4. Asking price 3000 gp
The next week, I roll 5 and 4. This is case B4 and MULT stays unchanged.
The next week, I roll 6 and 6. This is case B1 and the item disappears.

A few more sample rolls I just did, to show the progression. All for our +1 Longsword. Assuming the players characters never buy anything, of course.
6 5000 gp
2 1000 gp
-

8 7000 gp
3 2000 gp
3 2000 gp
-

5 4000 gp
4 3000 gp
3 2000 gp
2 1000 gp
1 500 gp
-

9 8000 gp
4 3000 gp
4 3000 gp
3 2000 gp
2 1000 gp
-

11 10000 gp
6 5000 gp
5 4000 gp
1 500 gp
-

A quite nice progression for such a simple mechanism, wouldn't you say?

Note how the "exponentiality" comes built-in. No tables or squaring math needed

While this does simplify things, I think the range where the item is "fair price" (× 0.5 to 1) is too narrow. It looks to me like a lot of items would disappear while their multiplier is 2 or higher. Admittedly, this is just based on my gut as I haven't done the math.

I also think an average starting asking price of 7 times the list price is a bit high. IMO, somewhere between a multiplier of 3 to 5 would be more ideal (possibly in their price range if they REALLY want it but they would be better off waiting). I have a hard time imagining anyone paying seven times the list price (meaning that your starting price becomes more of a preview of the item).

Here's what I might do. I would use the bones of your original system, but change out the formula for the following:

Rating...Multiplier
20...10
19...9
18...8
17...7
16...6
15...5
14...4
13...3
12...2
11...1
10...0.95
9...0.90
8...0.85
7...0.80
6...0.75
5...0.70
4...0.65
3...0.60
2...0.55
1...0.50

Admittedly, a lookup table rather than a formula, but one that is fairly easy to remember and even easier to just plug into a spreadsheet.

You set the starting rating using advantage 2d20 (making the average starting multiplier around x4).

This maintains your desired range (0.5 to 10), but opens more potential for the price to drop into an affordable range.

On a tick I would roll 3d10, drop the lowest, to determine whether it had been purchased. The reason for this is that there is a chance for even a rating 20 item to be picked up by a wealthy collector, thereby making waiting always a risk. Conversely, it is a curve (averaging 8.52) meaning that players can reasonably expect the price to usually come into an affordable range before disappearing. Waiting for a deep discount, however, becomes extremely risky.

Then reduce the rating however desired (1d6 works). This is really a matter of taste, since it largely just determines the average rate at which items cycle. If you prefer that items stay on the shelves longer, use 1d4 or 1d4-1 or whatever.

 

[Ancalagon]

That's the idea, so it's more kind of a "reverse auction". (But still no actual auction)

I see. The reason I asked if the shop purchases the items or puts it on consignment is that while this detail doesn't matter much if all that ever occurs is the PCs buying stuff, it becomes vitally important if the PCs decided to *sell* stuff.

The point is to downplay the importance of having objectively correct prices, and to turn the fact that an item can be much more valuable for one character than the next from a liability into an asset.

If you really want an item, you might be prepared to purchase it at a premium, to avoid the risk of the item disappearing.

Items you don't particularly need you can afford to play it cool and wait for the price to go down.

The point is to make the system self-regulating. A fixed price list runs the risk of getting some items wrong, underestimating their power and utility, and therefore throwing balance out of whack by being items you can buy "too cheap".

With a system like this, prices are always fluctuating, and an item can't be reliably picked up "too cheap" - you need both luck and a steady hand to pick up something "too cheap".

But if you manage to wait it out, chances are you didn't particularly need it anyway, so then the fact you got it cheap doesn't throw balance off as much.

That's the idea anyhow...

Aaaah - that's very admirable, the notion of item value. In our modern economic system, it's supply and demand, and the "invisible hand of the market" that determines value. Having a fixed price list is how centrally planned economies behave - or medieval guilds fixing the prices of items (this doesn't feel like a "good fit" for most magical items).

It sorts of help... but save for the PCs, the only "check" on the price of the item is probability - which have been strictly determined by you - and the original list price, determined by the author. So it's not fully determining the "real" value of the item, since there is only one real customer (the PCs) adjusting the price of the item.

The only way to do this really right would be to have some kind of massive system with hundreds, thousands of players bidding for various items... then the real value would emerge

(I played EVE Online a few years and I got to see such a system in action, it was quite something to behold!)

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Sure, but remember, I'm aiming for a price range of 0,5x to 10x

0.5x to 10x of what? The list price is just an abstraction. If MULT is 1 and the longsword's asking price is 1,000 gp, well, that's 0.5 x 2,000 gp. Who's to say 2,000 gp isn't the "real" list price? (It was in 3E, give or take.)

Or, if you specifically want the longsword to have a price between 500 gp and 10,000 gp, set the list price to 500 gp and determine MULT with 2d10 or 2d12.

 

[CapnZapp]

I see. The reason I asked if the shop purchases the items or puts it on consignment is that while this detail doesn't matter much if all that ever occurs is the PCs buying stuff, it becomes vitally important if the PCs decided to *sell* stuff.

The proprietor is happy to unload your unwanted goods at 50% the listed price. No haggling, no bargaining.

And no, any such items "disappear" - they're not put up for sale.

If you now say this makes it not a real economy, you're completely right.

Any tendency for players to stay back home and "play the stock market" is curbed, hard. The focus is and shall remain on the heroic adventuring.

All this is meant to do, is to go from a situation where gold is useless once you have your plate armor (remember, published campaign features no downtime)

... to where looting gold becomes fun again, because who knows what wondrous item you might be able to purchase with it!



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[CapnZapp]

The only way to do this really right would be to have some kind of massive system with hundreds, thousands of players bidding for various items... then the real value would emerge

(I played EVE Online a few years and I got to see such a system in action, it was quite something to behold!)

Tell me about it...! (World of Warcraft too had an auction system)

Of course, when (and if ) WotC finally decides to enter the modern age (there's computers now, you know) we would not only get legal PDFs and such, but they could also create a feedback system.

One that let's them finally see how many players are playing a certain class, choosing a particular ability, spell or feature. Ideally you want to know details too: how many rounds did that combat take? What was the DPR of the bard, the druid?

All of this data is available to a company like Blizzard, and their game balance efforts are head and shoulders above and beyond.


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[CapnZapp]

0.5x to 10x of what? The list price is just an abstraction. If MULT is 1 and the longsword's asking price is 1,000 gp, well, that's 0.5 x 2,000 gp. Who's to say 2,000 gp isn't the "real" list price? (It was in 3E, give or take.)

Or, if you specifically want the longsword to have a price between 500 gp and 10,000 gp, set the list price to 500 gp and determine MULT with 2d10 or 2d12.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you making a suggestion, or pointing out some error I made.

Edit: see new post below.


Since you mention 3e I must assume the notion of a list price being calculated from the item's utility (it's powers and abilities) is known to you.

If it's that you're actually asking me a question, please try again and I'll do my best to respond.

I don't understand what about having 0,5x to 10x as my desired target range can be difficult to grasp, and why you are so reticicient to a simple multiplier.

For the longsword, the range is 10,000 gp to 500 gp. For a potion with a 150 gp list price, the range is 1,500 gp to 75 gp.

At first, the price drop is big. As it comes closer to list price, the drop in price slows down, and the rusk of it disappearing gets larger and larger.

All of this is meant to separate the wheat from the chaff. If a player truly desires an item, she will buy it at a premium. The more she values the item, the higher she's prepared to go.

That's the idea anyway. It means that the player's own subjective evaluation of the item is entered into play. No longer do you have a static price list which the players can pore over, and select those items where the utility for them is greater than what the price creator thought of.

In the same vein, there are no longer any "red" or useless items. If you can pick up a less desired item at a bargain price, maybe it can be put to good use after all.

The design difficulty here is that prices must drop rather quickly, since you don't have more than a few visits to any given magic shoppe - then you level up, and out of the target audience.

And the price range must include a bargain level (such as "half price" as in my example), yet items can't predictably get there, or noone makes a premium purchase any longer (instead waiting for the price to fall).

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[Lanefan]

The proprietor is happy to unload your unwanted goods at 50% the listed price. No haggling, no bargaining.

And no, any such items "disappear" - they're not put up for sale.

If you now say this makes it not a real economy, you're completely right.

Any tendency for players to stay back home and "play the stock market" is curbed, hard. The focus is and shall remain on the heroic adventuring.

Arbitrary, but with the right idea.

Perhaps the only thing I'd change is that items sold by the party might show up for sale sometime later, for both realism's sake and in case the party for some reason decide or realize they want or need the sold item back (at a higher cost!). This way, if they accidentally sell some key essential item they don't yet know they're going to need three adventures down the road they have at least some chance of getting it back.

All this is meant to do, is to go from a situation where gold is useless once you have your plate armor (remember, published campaign features no downtime)

... to where looting gold becomes fun again, because who knows what wondrous item you might be able to purchase with it!

Though we may quibble a bit on how best to achieve it, this is an excellent end result to aim for.

And the bit about published campaigns featuring no downtime - that's easily remedied from either side of the screen.

Lan-"I don't care if the world blows up, we're taking the damn winter off for some R&R!"-efan

 

[CapnZapp]

0.5x to 10x of what? The list price is just an abstraction. If MULT is 1 and the longsword's asking price is 1,000 gp, well, that's 0.5 x 2,000 gp. Who's to say 2,000 gp isn't the "real" list price? (It was in 3E, give or take.)

Or, if you specifically want the longsword to have a price between 500 gp and 10,000 gp, set the list price to 500 gp and determine MULT with 2d10 or 2d12.

I've been thinking, and I might have understood you now.

Perhaps you simply mean that I can divide my list prices in two, and then I can use the 2d6 multiplier as is, no pesky "-1" modifier needed?

If so, thank you. The final range becomes 0,5x to 6x

And I can live with that

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[TheCosmicKid]

I've been thinking, and I might have understood you now.

Perhaps you simply mean that I can divide my list prices in two, and then I can use the 2d6 multiplier as is, no pesky "-1" modifier needed?

If so, thank you. The final range becomes 0,5x to 6x

And I can live with that

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Yup, that's it. Except, as I said, you can also use larger dice to get the multiplier back up to 10x if you want.