D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[MackMcMacky]

Mordenkainen was involved in at least two modules that I know of, and he met with Elminster and Dalamar to discuss the three worlds and trade spells. And Elminster isn't very active, either. His name is just everywhere. He works behind the scenes when he works at all. Mostly he hangs out smoking and being a sage.

You might want to reconsider. Read Module FRE1, FRE2, and FRE3. Elminster is central to the plot. He is doing much more than the PCs about the immediate threats of the Godswar. He punishes them if they don't want to go on the railroad-y adventure. He gives them clues and "support". The adventures are filled with blocked text with NPCs, including Elminster, talking at PCs or talking past PCs. Mordenkainen has NEVER been used like this.

And I really don't think three wizards being used as a literary device in a series of magazine articles matters.

He gets name-dropped in FA1, FRQ1, Castle Spulzeer, and in Four from Corymyr (and used in the rumor table). The PCs are aided by Elminster in FRC2. Elminster's scribe is hiring PCs to save someone in Sword of the Dales. Elminster's shadow is all over the next module in the series. One of the big closers in the last of the trilogy of modules is the players get to talk to Elminster AND Khelben. He introduces all the dales in FRS1. In Cormyr, we learn he taught Vandergahast.

and I stopped looking but there were plenty more to look at.

 

[MackMcMacky]

The existence of other powerful wizards doesn't come close to negating what I'm saying. After all, Elminster is at least 2nd down on the arcane caster totem pole in the Realms, maybe farther down than that. Since your response doesn't affect my position at all, what was your point?

And Zagyg as an archmage is in the past of the campaign setting. The capture of 9 gods is how he ascends to demi-god status which is not even made clear in the original campaign book and is certainly not important to any adventure the players would be involved in that I can think of, maybe it's referenced in an encounter in the Ruins of Greyhawk.

 

[MackMcMacky]

I was agreeing with you by showing that there are indeed NPCs in Greyhawk who mingle with the gods, just that it wasn't the NPC in question.

Sorry that wasn't clearer.

Zagyg and Celestian are the only gods in Greyhawk that I know of who hang out, rarely, with mortals, namely Mordenkainen, Heward, Keoughtom, and Murlynd. This is mostly on other planes and usually involves Keoughtom who is a Quasi-Deity. Zagyg has few worshippers and is not particularly active on Oerth. Celestian is likewise withdrawn from Oerth and has few worshippers. Mordenkainen may be running with a couple of gods and quasi-deities but they aren't particularly active in the campaign setting.

 

[Zardnaar]

Keoughtom was a childhood friend of Gygax that died. Tom Keough iirc.

The Elminster thing was mostly some bad adventure in early 2E. Outside Dungeon and some boxed setting it was not until late 2E they really got good adventures.

By then they were either done in TSRs death throes or after the WotC buyout.

 

[MackMcMacky]

Keoughtom was a childhood friend of Gygax that died. Tom Keough iirc.

The Elminster thing was mostly some bad adventure in early 2E. Outside Dungeon and some boxed setting it was not until late 2E they really got good adventures.

By then they were either done in TSRs death throes or after the WotC buyout.

By then I had been burned enough by FRealms that I didn't want anything to do with the campaign adventures. I had never really purchased any to use in the FRealms but I thought I could use them by 'porting them over to another setting. The way they were designed it really wasn't worth the effort. Once I got my "collector impulse" under control I stopped buying stuff I wouldn't really use. Now, 5E is setting their few-and-far-between adventures in the FRealms encouraging me to spend my gaming money elsewhere. If their adventures had been set in a neutral setting I likely would have bought every one of them. I would have been even more likely to buy them if they published more sandbox-style adventures.

 

[Lanefan]

I guess I was taught something different. PCs are special and the only ones with levels.

If I may ask, what edition (or game system, for that matter) did you start with?

I've been based in 1e AD&D all the way along and have always just taken it for granted that there's other levelled people out there in the world; some who earned said levels by adventuring (in parties other than the one(s) that get played) and others who earned their levels more slowly as soldiers or temple clerics or street thieves or research mages. Maybe it's because of the published modules...

Look at T1 Village of Hommlet. Half the supposed peasants in that village are levelled - in a few cases significantly so - in at least one class. And the three BBEGs are also all levelled NPCs. No PCs here.
Look at Dark Tower. There's a bunch of levelled NPCs you can rescue or meet at various locations, and a boatload more who are there purely as foes.
Look at the A-series (A1-A4 Slavers). There's enough levelled NPCs and enemies in those four modules to fill out half a dozen parties!

Besides, if there's no other levelled people out there where do the replacement PCs come from when someone's character dies or retires, or a new player joins the game, or someone wants to hire a hench?

Lan-"and no matter how big you get a few of those levelled NPCs are always going to be bigger"-efan

 

[Hussar]

So how did you do NPCs in ADnD then?

Ok, i always remember the adventures that detailed NPCs like Burne (8th level magic-user) and Rufus (6th level Fighter).

To be fair, in AD&D (at least 1e), only humans and demi-humans and humanoids ever had class levels. And, generally, humanoids didn't either. It was Ravenloft, with Strahd, that the first monster ever got class levels.

And, even then, non-humanoids were never built using PC rules. You simply tacked on whatever stats you felt appropriate (this Goblin Chief is treated as a LvL 4 Fighter - not that that goblin chief actually WAS a Level 4 fighter)

It's been a while but I can't recall Elminster or the Simbul or any of the 7 sisters really making much of an appearance in most of the FR novels I've read. Where they did, the books were about them. I recall the first Baldurs Gate game had a brief run in with him but it was pretty incidental, he didn't do anything and he had no impact on the game.

Sent from my SM-G925I using EN World mobile app

Hang on a tick. The ENTIRE plot line of Baldur's Gate comes from Elminister and Gorion taking in the spawn of Bhaal. Without Elminister, there would actually not be any story to be told.

 

[Hussar]

Written by @Prosfilaes



That's simply not true in D&D. In D&D since 1e, adventuring is not rare at all. From 1e to 3e NPC adventurers were all over the place. In 4e they were still all over the place, but the default was a different mechanic from the PC rules, though 4e still went out of its way to tell DMs that they could use the PC mechanics for NPCs if they wanted to, the game just wasn't balanced for it. 5e has gone back towards the earlier editions, and NPC adventurers are still around.

You can play the game as if NPC adventurers are rare, but that's your homebrew.

That's flat out untrue. In AD&D, adventurers were considered VERY rare. One of the bigger changes that came with 3e was the guidelines for leveled NPC's in a community. And those guidelines were heavily criticized as creating very high powered worlds.

But, no, leveled NPC's were certainly not a thing pre-3e. Mostly because anyone that wasn't an actual character class, had monster stat blocks. A Bandit wasn't an X level PC. A bandit had d6 HP and a completely separate stat block from, say, a trader.

No, classed NPC's were a very rare thing in AD&D.

 

[Hussar]

If I may ask, what edition (or game system, for that matter) did you start with?

I've been based in 1e AD&D all the way along and have always just taken it for granted that there's other levelled people out there in the world; some who earned said levels by adventuring (in parties other than the one(s) that get played) and others who earned their levels more slowly as soldiers or temple clerics or street thieves or research mages. Maybe it's because of the published modules...

Look at T1 Village of Hommlet. Half the supposed peasants in that village are levelled - in a few cases significantly so - in at least one class. And the three BBEGs are also all levelled NPCs. No PCs here.
Look at Dark Tower. There's a bunch of levelled NPCs you can rescue or meet at various locations, and a boatload more who are there purely as foes.
Look at the A-series (A1-A4 Slavers). There's enough levelled NPCs and enemies in those four modules to fill out half a dozen parties!

Besides, if there's no other levelled people out there where do the replacement PCs come from when someone's character dies or retires, or a new player joins the game, or someone wants to hire a hench?

Lan-"and no matter how big you get a few of those levelled NPCs are always going to be bigger"-efan

I just checked. Not counting noncombatants (mostly wives and children), there are 77 0 level militia in Hommlet and 15 leveled individuals. We're talking about 10% of the population in a village that is hardly typical. In the Moat House, we get 8 Brigands (unique stat blocks) led by a 2nd level fighter. Lower down we get 6 Guardsmen and 1 Sergeant - no levels. In the next encounter, we get 12 guards, 2 sergeants and a 4th level fighter leader. The final encounter is Lareth the Beautiful, who is a 5th level cleric.

I'm not really sure you can say that class leveled individuals are all that common when the only classed individuals we see are humans/demi-humans and even then on ly a small fraction of those.

 

[Zardnaar]

That's flat out untrue. In AD&D, adventurers were considered VERY rare. One of the bigger changes that came with 3e was the guidelines for leveled NPC's in a community. And those guidelines were heavily criticized as creating very high powered worlds.

But, no, leveled NPC's were certainly not a thing pre-3e. Mostly because anyone that wasn't an actual character class, had monster stat blocks. A Bandit wasn't an X level PC. A bandit had d6 HP and a completely separate stat block from, say, a trader.

No, classed NPC's were a very rare thing in AD&D.

Late 2E introduced that in the High Level Campaigns Book (IIRC). Basically about 1 in ten had a level in a class (lvl 1), 1 in a million was level 18.

Seems low but even in a pre industrial society imperial Rome would have had around 60 lvl 18 characters kicking around, 120 lvl 17 ones and something like medieval France could have had 20-30 lvl 18 NPCs.

I tend to lean more towards original Greyhawk, most NPCs are level 13 and below, the greatest heroes and villains are level 18.