D&D 5E Is my DM being fair?

I have a couple questions. How friendly are you with this dm? Did you know this dm well outside the game? Do you feel like the dm is doing this to attack you personally or is he/she just a control freak?Has any of the other players had this happen to them? At first glance this sounds like a overcontrolling dm. But honestly you really havent given enough info on the whole group dynamics. Im serious though when I say if you think your dm suck, that you should take over. Thats what I did when I felt my old dms where not up to par and Ive been dming ever since. That was around twenty years ago.
I played with him one other time. Her seems knowledgeable enough, but a little anal retentive about rulings(dice rolls for every freaking thing) when, I would dm, would "hand wave" a call.

He seems nice enough, but I think this is his first time dming.

The rest of the party, works out well, and we have had fun playing thus far.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Here is the message from my DM:

It's been getting kind of ridiculous. This is the third time we've had a situation where something happens unexpectedly or someone makes a sudden move, you can't be surprised ever, and then you roll a higher initiative, so it's like "This guy didn't make his move yet, but you just had a HUNCH he was going to suddenly cast Misty Step" or "PC didn't do anything yet, but you can just sort of tell that they are going to suddenly kick this guy". This isn't Diviniation magic, and you're not a Jedi, there's no way that being more "Alert" would cause you to predict events before they happen.

Comments?

This is a common problem with I GO U GO initiative systems -- the idea that nothing happens until your turn comes up. You could try to pitch the idea that things are happening all the time in combat (and before) but initiative is when you resolve it for game purposes. So the guy casting misty step isn't standing there drooling until his count comes up, doing absolutely nothing, instead his hand is waving glowy lines in the air and he's mumbling incantations under his breath but you're quick enough to jump in and stab him before he finishes.

The DM's job is to frame the situation so that everyone knows what's going on when he asks for initiative. When initiative is rolled, there should be zero doubt that bad things are happening and who's doing them. If you (as DM) are asking for initiative and not providing the situation so that players that roll high can make good decisions, you're essentially playing in bad faith -- you're shading the game so that players that roll higher than you still cannot react to your plans until after you've started them. This is not good play. But it's pretty much where most DMs start, so it's understandable. One of the big skills to learn as a DM is that your side is supposed to lose much, much more often than not, and that your job isn't to win combats or have your story told, but the present situations that the players can then react to and let that be the story.

If it helps, use the gunfight example. You're sitting in the saloon when Bad Bart bursts through the door screaming about how he's going to kill you for what you done to his brother. This is a surprise, but you're Nick the Quick, fastest hands in the state, so even though you had no idea Bad Bart was in town, you kick back from the poker table and pull your iron and get off two shots before Bad Bart can even finish swinging his shotgun to cover you. You're just that quick, and have a reputation for it. So when Nasty Ned, Bad Bart's other brother, comes for you, he brings the Nasty Boys with him and makes sure they go through the door first, screaming about how they're gonna do for you for what you done to Ned's brother Bart. Ned, being canny, steps over they're smoking corpses and levels his shotgun at you while you're reloading.

If, instead, the DM wishes to have a setting moment where a bad guy does something or says something and then gets away, either make the bad guy tough enough to survive whatever the party throws for a round before they escape, or else just narrate it -- the bad guy smiles and disappears before you can react. If you ask for initiative, you've got to deal with the fact that you might lose it. If this affects your game plans, then either deal with it or don't ask for initiative.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Here is the message from my DM:

It's been getting kind of ridiculous. This is the third time we've had a situation where something happens unexpectedly or someone makes a sudden move, you can't be surprised ever, and then you roll a higher initiative, so it's like "This guy didn't make his move yet, but you just had a HUNCH he was going to suddenly cast Misty Step" or "PC didn't do anything yet, but you can just sort of tell that they are going to suddenly kick this guy". This isn't Diviniation magic, and you're not a Jedi, there's no way that being more "Alert" would cause you to predict events before they happen.

Comments?

My take on these sorts of situations is that if someone can imagine reasons why something can't be, then he or she is smart enough to imagine why something can be. It's a game driven by imagination. So what you do is accept the premise granted by the feat (or other mechanic) - this PC doesn't get surprised and is quick to react. Then you come up with a reason why that makes sense in context, establishing additional details if you need to. The alert feat says "You're always on the lookout for danger." That's a good enough reason to me why you can be ready in those three aforementioned situations.

But sometimes people offer an objection that isn't really the true objection. It could well be that the DM wants a particular outcome to happen and this feat is getting in the way of that. Or it's reducing the difficulty of the challenge he created in a way he doesn't like. Then he uses what is essentially a realism argument as an objection, which is always a weak argument anyway in a game that takes place in a fantasy world. There's a lot of wiggle room to have things make sense in worlds with elves and dragons.

The game works fine without feats. It's an optional rule anyway. So why not just ask to make a different character and take all ability score improvements to save yourself the hassle?
 

Mephista

Adventurer
Once had a GM that hated rogues. Would never admit it, but he made a bunch of subtle rulings that basically hurt being a rogue all the time. Got to the point that no one played one, ever, in these games, nor a character with a similar concept.

Sometimes, its just a matter of trying to find playstyles that mesh. The OP's gm is probably having trouble adapting playstyles.
 

Waterbizkit

Explorer
Here is the message from my DM:

It's been getting kind of ridiculous. This is the third time we've had a situation where something happens unexpectedly or someone makes a sudden move, you can't be surprised ever, and then you roll a higher initiative, so it's like "This guy didn't make his move yet, but you just had a HUNCH he was going to suddenly cast Misty Step" or "PC didn't do anything yet, but you can just sort of tell that they are going to suddenly kick this guy". This isn't Diviniation magic, and you're not a Jedi, there's no way that being more "Alert" would cause you to predict events before they happen.

Comments?

It sounds like your DM doesn't understand how initiative or surprise work, at least narratively if not also mechanically. The first example given in their message is telling of this, so I'll stick with that for now.

If an NPC draws a weapon unexpectedly, let's say, to try and and attack a member of the party the first thing that happens is everyone rolls initiative. After initiative order is established the DM decides who's surprised and who isn't. Surprised individuals essentially "miss a turn", except for taking reactions after their turn in the order, and everyone else acts normally.

So let's say this happens and you beat the NPC on the initiative roll. You haven't had a hunch that he was going to do something... he already did it! He drew the weapon. That has nothing to do with initiative or surprise. Your character saw it happen but simply managed to act before the weapon could be used to make an attack because you're more... what's the word... alert!

So he's right, the alert feat doesn't make you a Jedi and doesn't give you divination-like powers, but it does give you a very good chance to react quickly to things that have already happened. Your DM just needs to better understand how all of these mechanics mesh with the narrative. If they're new it can be a learning process.

As to the greater point of the thread, is it fair or not, I personally think it's bad form to ask you to make changes after the fact. Setting up ground rules for what is or isn't allowed is at the DMs discretion, there's no argument there. However asking players to alter their characters on multiple occasions after the fact is a bit much because they can't rely on choices they make... say you swap out alert for some other feat, who's to say that won't suddenly be a problem down the road? Will you have to cha he it again? And again? Really this DM may want to consider having feats removed entirely if they're not comfortable with them yet.

Either way have a frank, but friendly, discussion about it is the best way forward, usually is. At the very least everyone will know where they stand and can decide how they want to best proceed, up to and including leaving the campaign... as unfortunate as that would be. Good luck with it and I hope it all get resolved amicably.
 
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robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
I played with him one other time. Her seems knowledgeable enough, but a little anal retentive about rulings(dice rolls for every freaking thing) when, I would dm, would "hand wave" a call.

He seems nice enough, but I think this is his first time dming.

The rest of the party, works out well, and we have had fun playing thus far.

Sounds like he needs to read this: http://theangrygm.com/five-simple-rules-for-dating-my-teenaged-skill-system/
and this http://theangrygm.com/adjudicate-actions-like-a-boss/
and definitely this: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?453707-How-to-Adjudicate-Actions-in-D-amp-D-5e

Effectively adjudicating actions is *the* key skill IMHO, everything flows from that.
 


Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
No your DM is not being fair. He's changing the rules in the middle of the game.

Away from table, have a discussion with him. Bring a Monster Manual and point out the high-initiative monsters who can get the jump on your character. Ask him to look over the feats and give you a list (maybe by next session) of the feats he will allow.
Also ask - and be as non-confrontational as you can - if he has a pre-set idea of 'how encounters should play out'. Should surprise ALWAYS be an issue? Do the PCs always get the jump on the monsters, usually get the jump, half-and-half, never get the jump? Does he have a 'pre-set plotline' in his head that the rest of the group should know about?

I've DM'ed at the FLGS "Welcome to D&D" group so I knew going in I would have to be flexible and work to make players happy. It sounds like your DM doesn't have his head in that kind of place.
 

KahlessNestor

Adventurer
I was most surprised to find there were people that didn't know about variant humans! Lol It's the most popular race!

That said, advice to just drop the feat and go standard isn't quite fair either. If he does that he is going to lose a skill, too. There's a reason standard human is the least popular race.

Sent from my SM-G900P using EN World mobile app
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I was most surprised to find there were people that didn't know about variant humans! Lol It's the most popular race!

That said, advice to just drop the feat and go standard isn't quite fair either. If he does that he is going to lose a skill, too. There's a reason standard human is the least popular race.

Sent from my SM-G900P using EN World mobile app

Go non-human for the opportunity to pick up that sweet sweet darkvision.
 

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