D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Azzy]

I appreciate how the 1e Deities & Demigods was a separate opt-in-for-those-who-want-it splatbook that I can easily ignore without headaches of its baked in flavor infecting everything else.

Okay, then...

 

[Chaosmancer]

I’m going to be cutting things up and responding to parts. I don’t think I need to cover everything.

The church of Bane has the same situation, but without the benefit of a government backing them. What's their mission? Find and kill every faithful of Cyric.

This confused me for a second, until I remember you saying Cyric’s followers used the Church of Bane. Without that it makes no sense for them to hunt down the faithful of other religions instead of the empire building that seems implicit in their religion.

About as difficult as Satanists in our world. And to many religions, Satan is seen as the only threat to God's people. While Asmodeus is often seen as a direct port of Satan to D&D, I'd say Bane is a better match in terms of the amount of power he's given.

Also, most polytheistic religions had evil gods, or at least gods that represented the nature of evil in the world. All aspects of life and the world are typically ascribed to the gods in one way or another. And while the rules have created gods for every intelligent race, perhaps Gruumsh is really an aspect of Bhaal. Or when the Uthgardt barbarians war with each other, that Myrkul is the god they call, but by a different name?

The closest I can find for the Greeks is a Primordial Deity 2 generations removed from the Olympians who “existed before Chaos”, which does indicate that it would have passed or been sealed by the Olympians much like the Titans. Oh, there is Eris, forgot about her.

I guess you can find deities of strife and chaos pretty easily, but they are generally either Trickster deities (which is vastly different) or minor deities. But, there is no Greek God of Murder, assassins, The primordial is the only poison god, no deities of disease. Most DnD realms have one or two major deities of evil and they generally are shown to be equally powerful despite having no reason to worship them.

A lot of older Polytheism is based around “Why does that thing exist” for a lot of them, evil spirits and monsters were the explanations for bad things in the world. There was no God of Disease who caused that outbreak, but spirits of disease which were troubling the town.

I’m also not a fan of “The orc god is really a version of our god”. Either there is one pantheon, or there are multiple pantheons. Don’t take one group and make them not know the truth about their own god, it aggravates me.

Having said that, perhaps it serves Cyric's purposes to provide such power to those who worship Asmodeus? Spreading lies, deceit, and madness are his goals, no?
I couldn't answer for 4e, but earlier than that I don't think so. Fiends have generally been used as mercenaries by others (an evil wizard opening a gate, for example). But not able to grant abilities, particularly clerical abilities, to anybody.

I very much doubt the Archdevils or Demon Lords are often used as mercenaries. I think any human wizard that tries to Gate in Mammon to fight his enemies for him is going to find his life on this plane of existence cut short very quickly.

And that is the level of being I’m talking about, those that rules those realms below. Which frankly, I don’t see a problem letting them grant minor clerical abilities. The alternative is that there is always some diety empowering the demons or devils… who are looking to destroy all deities?

I just find it all very strange, like we’re trying so hard to not say they can grant power like a god, so that we can place the gods on a higher pedestal… and I don’t see what we gain in the game because of it.

I've also removed the Divine Intervention ability from the 5e cleric. I don't see the gods acting that directly in the world. The power creep stuff came from TSR, Ed's vision is "looking over the shoulders of “just plain folks” struggling to survive and flourish in the midst of whatever wildness is going on.

I’ve been frustrated with the Divine Intervention ability recently. What did you replace it with?

 

[Hussar]

I appreciate how the 1e Deities & Demigods was a separate opt-in-for-those-who-want-it splatbook that I can easily ignore without headaches of its baked in flavor infecting everything else.

No it wasn't. Everything in 1e was 100% official. There was no concept of "opt in" back then. Every book, every Dragon Magazine, whatever, was 100% official and presumed to be part of the game. There was no Core vs Non-Core, back in the day.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Rumor is that Ed is working on more Volo's Guides for DMs Guild, or at least something like them.

That's interesting. I wonder if (supposing they will be a direct continuation of the series and not just something similar) they will continue the series in the 1360s or be an update for the current Realms (and thus possibly revisit areas covered in the previous series)...

 

[Yaarel]

No it wasn't. Everything in 1e was 100% official. There was no concept of "opt in" back then. Every book, every Dragon Magazine, whatever, was 100% official and presumed to be part of the game. There was no Core vs Non-Core, back in the day.

Your experience differs from my experience.

I played AD&D. (Actually, my friends who prefer AD&D used a fusion of 1e and 2e, using the 1e PH and DMG, but adding many 2e splatbooks and whatnot.)

The 1e source books emphasize homebrew. The DM is supposed to create their own campaign setting, and pick-and-choose which rules to use. It was normal for each DM to compile their own notebook full of the houserules and clarifications that they decided on. (In fact, official rules were so incomplete and conflictive, it was impossible to use official rules as-is, without altering them.) The campaign setting might include Westerner guns, scifi laser beams, Japanese Ninjas, whatever you want. Do it.

Official D&D is use your own imagination. The official rules are strictly suggestive for inspiration, in order to further ‘Rule 0’.

The Greyhawk campaign setting is completely separate from AD&D. This *SETTING* was a theoretical exercise to see if it was even possible to use all of the bewilderingly conflictive rules that TSR ever published, whether in products or magazines. To some degree, the enterprise was successful as long as you dont look at the details too directly.

As far as I can tell, most AD&D grognards homebrewed their own worlds with their own houserules − and never even used or referred to the Greyhawk campaign setting. Personally, my only encounter with the name ‘Greyhawk’ is when it was just a product about a city called ‘Greyhawk’, with a city map and some descriptions about its neighborhoods. As far as I am concern, an entire TRS world called ‘Greyhawk’ lacks existence. I never encountered World of Greyhawk products. Nor do I want to.

In my experience, the only "official" products for AD&D are the PH, DMG, and MM. And these three products are supposed to be heavily altered.

 

[Shasarak]

No it wasn't. Everything in 1e was 100% official. There was no concept of "opt in" back then. Every book, every Dragon Magazine, whatever, was 100% official and presumed to be part of the game. There was no Core vs Non-Core, back in the day.

I never came across someone who used everything in 1e, it was always this or that with house rules everywhere plus whatever was cool from whatever supplement you managed to get.

 

[Uchawi]

FR is too complex and tries to be too much.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I’m going to be cutting things up and responding to parts. I don’t think I need to cover everything.

This confused me for a second, until I remember you saying Cyric’s followers used the Church of Bane. Without that it makes no sense for them to hunt down the faithful of other religions instead of the empire building that seems implicit in their religion.

If you don't know your Realmslore - Cyric (the human) killed Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul during the Time of Troubles and became a god taking their portfolios (and churches). Bane's son was a demigod trying to take back some of Bane's old followers, but turned out to be a shell to allow Bane to be reborn. Or something like that. So as soon as he came back, the Banites that converted back (and those that followed his son instead of Cyric) immediately started a crusade against Cyric's followers.

I’m also not a fan of “The orc god is really a version of our god”. Either there is one pantheon, or there are multiple pantheons. Don’t take one group and make them not know the truth about their own god, it aggravates me.

Actually, I'm not a fan of all the monstrous humanoids (and a whole host of other creatures) having their own gods to start with. One of the things that I consistently find aggravating is the "humanization" of every race they create. Why aren't the exotic races more...exotic?

That being said, Gruumsh could also be subservient to Bane, etc. Like I said, though, I tend not to get that involved in what happens in the planes themselves. The "truth" isn't really relevant, since what people believe is very different. Really, what it comes down to is I'm not afraid to make changes in my pantheons to better suit what makes sense to me.

One of the things that I've looked at is that the orcs and goblin kin, are truly warlike/evil. That heaven to them is being part of the eternal war in their planes, and that an orc that isn't sadistic and strong enough is reborn on Faerun to "learn" again. So when a band of adventurers comes along an "saves" an orc, and brings them to the civilized world they are actually condemning them to orcish hell because they can't be reborn in the eternal war.

Another concept is that the orcs and goblin kin are more like a virus or bacteria, that they are "foreign" to the land (in the Realms they are from a different plane), have no natural place within the world, and any good that is seen in them is a combination of humans projecting their own feelings on them, or because they are just intelligent enough to be trained. They are literally worse than the Nazis, by their very natures.

I very much doubt the Archdevils or Demon Lords are often used as mercenaries. I think any human wizard that tries to Gate in Mammon to fight his enemies for him is going to find his life on this plane of existence cut short very quickly.

And that is the level of being I’m talking about, those that rules those realms below. Which frankly, I don’t see a problem letting them grant minor clerical abilities. The alternative is that there is always some diety empowering the demons or devils… who are looking to destroy all deities?

I just find it all very strange, like we’re trying so hard to not say they can grant power like a god, so that we can place the gods on a higher pedestal… and I don’t see what we gain in the game because of it.

Not the demon lords, just demons in general. Also, I forgot that Asmodeus and Tiamat are gods in the realms, along with Lolth. There's not really anything to say that other demon lords couldn't be.

I’ve been frustrated with the Divine Intervention ability recently. What did you replace it with?

Nothing, actually. I've reworked a number of classes, and removed (and sometimes replaced) some of the more annoying (to me) abilities. Most of the time it has to do with what makes sense in world building. If every cleric on the planet has a x% chance of having their god respond directly to them, it completely changes the nature of the world. I'm not as concerned about 10th level + abilities because of my campaigns because of much slower advancement. In 35+ years I can't honestly remember any PC, some of which were in play for 6+ years of weekly sessions, getting to 10th level. My campaigns are tough, and advancement very slow, much more inline with AD&D (especially if you played AD&D without awarding XP for treasure). AD&D leveling was different for each class. So with 355,000 XP (which is 20th level in 5e or 3,156 ogres in 5e, 6,762 ogres in 1e) you would be an:

8th level monk
9th level cleric, fighter, paladin
10th level ranger, magic user, illusionist, assassin (25,000 XP short of an 11th level magic user)
11th level thief
12th level druid

20th level 5e character

Having said that, my version of turning undead (and fiends) probably makes up for it:

Divine Might: Turn the Unholy
In the movies, holding back hordes of undead or powerful fiends is a test of will and channeling the might of your Deity.
This ability does not use the Channel Divinity ability, and can be used at any time.
Starting at 2nd level, as an Action, you can attempt to channel the divine power of your deity to protect against undead and fiends. You present your holy symbol and create a ward against undead and fiends. The creatures must make a Wisdom saving throw, with a DC equal to your spell save DC. If the creature is frightened if it fails its saving throw by more than 5, otherwise if it fails it is pushed outside of the sphere of protection and can continue to try to breach the barrier, or may choose to attack other targets outside of the barrier.
If the creature continues to try to breach the barrier, the creature can use its action to make an additional saving throw to end the effect for it and break through the barrier. Once a creature makes its saving throw, it cannot be affected by that cleric's turning or destruction ability for 24 hours.

So you can use it as much as you want, but most of the time it's just going to delay the inevitable. Right now the destroy undead ability uses the same chart as the PHB, but I think I'm going to change it so the barrier just causes damage to the undead that touch it. I might rework both so it drives the undead to try to get through the barrier, that is, they make the cleric their focus, so when you can destroy them, they'll be taking damage on a consistent basis.

I might also just work all of that into the turning undead, and the damage just increases with level.

Oh, and I allow any devout individual with a holy symbol to attempt the same thing, although the save DC is probably just a straight 8 + whatever modifier I think is appropriate under the circumstances. So if the cleric has fallen, the rogue can pick up their holy symbol and try to drive away the undead while they save the cleric's body and escape through the door.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

That's interesting. I wonder if (supposing they will be a direct continuation of the series and not just something similar) they will continue the series in the 1360s or be an update for the current Realms (and thus possibly revisit areas covered in the previous series)...

As far as I know he's in 5e time. The Mirt short story included a section at the back with crunch for 5e. I suspect the stuff will be a mix of old and new areas. From what I know, TSR (and probably WotC) edited his material mercilessly to get to certain page counts. So it wouldn't be hard to go back to the many "finished" products and update them a bit. Having said this, the proposed timetable hasn't occurred, he's way behind the schedule he set. I personally don't care, just the prospect that he'll be producing more is great as far as I'm concerned.

My current campaign is borrowing a lot of things from the older sourcebooks anyway. Skullport is intact, for example, and there are so many NPCs available to use I don't see any reason not to (although the famous ones are almost always off-stage in my campaigns).

Right now I'm refocusing things around my version of Parnast, where each player has multiple characters, all from the town, with the expectation that it will play out as a local campaign for the foreseeable future. It's going to be open sessions at the local gaming store, potentially two or three a week, with the first 6 people who sign up for each session. But the same players can join any of the sessions. So somebody might have characters in different adventures (and in downtime activities) at the same time, with a given session focusing on one of them. This way people can drop in and out as needed. We'll see if I split out part of the group for the home campaign. But they are all occurring at the same time, and in the same general place.

 

[Yaarel]

If you don't know your Realmslore - Cyric (the human) killed Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul during the Time of Troubles and became a god taking their portfolios (and churches). Bane's son was a demigod trying to take back some of Bane's old followers, but turned out to be a shell to allow Bane to be reborn. Or something like that. So as soon as he came back, the Banites that converted back (and those that followed his son instead of Cyric) immediately started a crusade against Cyric's followers.

LOL. I am so not into Realms lore. You said, the above. But below, is my comprehension of it.

"
If you don't know your Realmslore - Blah-blah-blah (the human) killed Blah-blah-blah, Blah-blah-blah and Blah-blah-blah during the Blah-blah-blah and became a god [huh, I dont really like polytheism, worshiping a finite creature seems dumb, I probably wont like this setting] taking their portfolios [huh?] (and churches [huh? arent churches a christian thing?]). Blah-blah-blah's son was a demigod [uch, annoying] trying to take back some of Blah-blah-blah's old followers, but turned out to be a shell to allow Blah-blah-blah to be reborn. Or something like that. [Wait. What? You yourself arent exactly sure about the lore?] So as soon as he came back, the Blah-blah-blahs that converted back (and those that followed his son instead of Blah-blah-blah) immediately started a crusade against Blah-blah-blah's followers.

"

As is apparent, the richness of FR boils down to the ‘soap opera of the gods’, who I want nothing to do with in the first place, and this richness cannot work as a selling point for me.

I like details, but only if the details are about things that I want and like.