D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[The_Gunslinger658]

You know, if someone posted "Why the hate for 4E" that thread would be shut down in a new york minute. But post a thread about how people hate FR and not a single whisper. BTW I do like FR, it is a fun campaign to me.

 

[Maxperson]

/tangent

Why hasn't Torm taken out Orcus then?

/end

Why would he? His job is to take care of his portfolio in the Realms, not go galavanting off into the planes like an adventurer. Besides, there's also the fact that TSR/WotC has said that the outer planes and their inhabitants have their roles in the multiverse. The gods wouldn't disrupt that willy nilly.

 

[Maxperson]

If you follow the tangent back you’ll find Ilbranteloth started talking about the Wall, forced polytheism came up, and then people started talking about how most conflicts in the realms are still Religious conflicts.

Except there is no “religious conflict” between the gods of good, it makes no sense. There is political conflict between them and there is competition, but it’s like the family fighting over the pumpkin pie during Thanksgiving. Everyone wants the bigger slices, but you don’t get into a fistfight if someone else gets more than you.

I disagree. It does make sense in a polytheistic society where each god has its own niche. In the real world religions come into conflict because you have them all vying for the same spot. Torm has no need to contest with Mystra as they don't at all have the same goals and desires. There's no conflict, because there's virtually nothing to conflict.

Now, the Evil gods are in conflict, but that’s where my narrative concerns come into play. They don’t have a story purpose that isn’t covered by the other forces, and the limits on their power seem to not be enforced by the mechanics of the game.

What do you mean by the bolded? I don't understand that statement clearly and would like to before I respond.

Then, as [MENTION=7706]SkidAce[/MENTION] said, why do the Demon Lords and Archdevils still exist? Why is Orcus still a threat and creating undead if Kelemvor could just smash him and his kingdom to pieces?

There needs to be a reason beyond “They just don’t feel like it” or the world falls apart and the gods are cast in an even worse light than they already are.

Actually, scratch that, why doesn’t Lolth control the Abyss then? OR Tiamat the Nine Hells? They both reside in those realms and are both goddesses, if they are so much more powerful than the other denizens of those realms then why haven’t they taken control?

I gave the reasons(or at least some of them) in the post right before this one.

 

[Maxperson]

When the 1e Dieties & Demigods came out, codifying the rules for gods, archdevils, demon princes, and such were treated as "lesser gods" in terms of abilities.

True, but in 2e and 3e they were much weaker. I'm not certain about 4e and 5e.

 

[Demetrios1453]

As is apparent, the richness of FR boils down to the ‘soap opera of the gods’, who I want nothing to do with in the first place, and this richness cannot work as a selling point for me.

Well, if you want to equate the richness of the FR solely to godly interactions, well, you are entitled to your opinion, but it does seem to me (and presumably a lot of others here) to missing a huge amount of other stuff that makes the Realms so rich.

Then again, I can't remember a time that a mortal in the Realms managed to entrap nine gods to fuel his ascension, as happened in Greyhawk. And as for Dragonlance... well, if FR is the "soap opera" of the gods, then Dragonlance would have to be the "way over-the-top telenovela of the gods", right?

And finally FR deity interactions are nowhere near as crazy as those from real-life mythologies anyway. Check out an even medium-sized book on Greek mythology to see a real "soap opera of the gods" that puts anything done in fantasy settings to utter shame...

 

[Yaarel]

Well, if you want to equate the richness of the FR solely to godly interactions, well, you are entitled to your opinion, but it does seem to me (and presumably a lot of others here) to missing a huge amount of other stuff that makes the Realms so rich.

Then again, I can't remember a time that a mortal in the Realms managed to entrap nine gods to fuel his ascension, as happened in Greyhawk. And as for Dragonlance... well, if FR is the "soap opera" of the gods, then Dragonlance would have to be the "way over-the-top telenovela of the gods", right?

And finally FR deity interactions are nowhere near as crazy as those from real-life mythologies anyway. Check out an even medium-sized book on Greek mythology to see a real "soap opera of the gods" that puts anything done in fantasy settings to utter shame...

Yeah. Pretty much. As far as I can tell or care, the Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms/Dragonlance settings are moreorless the same setting. If you mixed them up on me, I probably wouldnt notice any difference. All of them are a ‘telenovella about the gods’. Yawn. Eyes go blurry. Hard to concentrate. They all sound the same.

Eberron feels different to me. I like its vibe. It is easy to treat the setting, like reallife, where religions are subjective experiences of symbols, concepts and ideals. There are as many religions as there are languages. Running a campaign where polytheism is irrelevant is easy to do in Eberron.

Dark Sun also feels different to me. But I am less into the post-apocalyptic vibe.

Regarding reallife polytheism, I have never pretended to worship a Greek god. Nor one of the Norse Aesir or Alfar. Nor would it occur to me to do so. The D&D peer pressure to pretend to ‘worship’ these beings as ‘gods’ ranges from nonstarter to offensive.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

No it wasn't. Everything in 1e was 100% official. There was no concept of "opt in" back then. Every book, every Dragon Magazine, whatever, was 100% official and presumed to be part of the game. There was no Core vs Non-Core, back in the day.

No, it wasn't. Either one of Gary's editorials, or Sage Advice indicated that only Sage Advice and articles notated as "official" were official.

The preface of Deities and Demigods: "This book should be used as a beginning framework by the DM. Sample it, take what is wanted...it is the duty of the DM to add to, change, and otherwise modify the information in these pages for use in a campaign."

This also alludes to it, although it's not the article I'm looking for. This is from Gary's article "Poker, Chess & the AD&D System" in issue #67: " Thus, when you get information in these pages which bears the “official” stamp, that means it can immediately be used in game play."

That's "can" not "must."

Here's an interesting letter to the editor from Gary about somebody else's article(!):
"Dear editor: There are a couple of problems with Robert Barrow’s article, “Aiming for Realism in Archery,” in issue #58 of DRAGON™ Magazine. From my standpoint, it seems that the good author spends too much time with modern archery and has read nothing of medieval history dealing with the subject. English long-bowmen were set to practicing their aim at 200 to 220 paces. Let’s call that 180 yards. According to eyewitness accounts, the searchers could hit a butt of two feet width more often than not at that range. In a similar vein, Genoese crossbowmen were desirable troops because (when their strings weren’t wet) their weapons outranged the longbow. The most important issue, however, is complication. For all of the work and time the author suggests is necessary to add “realism” to archery in D&D® gaming, is the game more fun because of it? I, for one, don’t think so; and when all is said and done the course of play is not materially affected for the better by the inclusion of complicated archery rules.

E. Gary GygaxLake Geneva, Wi"

Found it:

Sage Advice, Issue #76:
"Is everything that appears in DRAGON Magazine an official rule change or addition?"

"No. Virtually all of the magazine's contents are not official, excepting only those writings that are defined as official, either by their nature (such as most articles written by E. Gary Gygax, which are "automatically" official) or by a note prefacing the article that indicates it should be considered official. For the most part, the material in DRAGON Magazine is intended only as possible suggestions for referees and players to adopt into their campaigns if they so choose. No one is obligated to use any of the material in the magazine, but if you try something ou tand you find you like it, have fun with it."

It wasn't until 3e that Dragon magazine was 100% official.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

LOL. I am so not into Realms lore. You said, the above. But below, is my comprehension of it.

"
If you don't know your Realmslore - Blah-blah-blah (the human) killed Blah-blah-blah, Blah-blah-blah and Blah-blah-blah during the Blah-blah-blah and became a god [huh, I dont really like polytheism, worshiping a finite creature seems dumb, I probably wont like this setting] taking their portfolios [huh?] (and churches [huh? arent churches a christian thing?]). Blah-blah-blah's son was a demigod [uch, annoying] trying to take back some of Blah-blah-blah's old followers, but turned out to be a shell to allow Blah-blah-blah to be reborn. Or something like that. [Wait. What? You yourself arent exactly sure about the lore?] So as soon as he came back, the Blah-blah-blahs that converted back (and those that followed his son instead of Blah-blah-blah) immediately started a crusade against Blah-blah-blah's followers.

"

As is apparent, the richness of FR boils down to the ‘soap opera of the gods’, who I want nothing to do with in the first place, and this richness cannot work as a selling point for me.

I like details, but only if the details are about things that I want and like.

Yeah, the soap opera of the gods, like the information I gave, is all centered around the Time of Troubles (to explain the shift from 1e to 2e), and in a handful of the many, many novels. It's really not important at all, other than it provides some background as to why the church of Bane hates and hunts followers of Cyric. The only other time that the nature of the gods has come into play is the mess around the start and end of 4e.

And no, I'm not completely sure about the lore of the Time of Troubles because the last time I read through that stuff was back when it was released. But that could be in part because I thought the books were banal and the adventures even worse. Cyric was a bit more interesting in Ed's treatment in the "Shadow of the Avatar" series that finished the story. But I haven't read those since what, 1995?

As I've stated before, I don't really have any interest in what's going on with the gods. My interest is in the material Realms. All I need to know is that the Banites hate and hunt Cyricists. And I really don't even need to know that, because I've never put any Cyricists in my campaign anyway.

By far the best example of what the Forgotten Realms is really all about are the original Volo's Guides by Ed Greenwood. It's all about the interesting people and places of the Realms. The richness in detail and lore is primarily centered on that.

 

[Azzy]

The D&D peer pressure to pretend to ‘worship’ these beings as ‘gods’ ranges from nonstarter to offensive.

Ooookay...

 

[hawkeyefan]

No it wasn't. Everything in 1e was 100% official. There was no concept of "opt in" back then. Every book, every Dragon Magazine, whatever, was 100% official and presumed to be part of the game. There was no Core vs Non-Core, back in the day.

Well, one could simply opt to not purchase the book. In which case it had no impact on one's game.

By far the best example of what the Forgotten Realms is really all about are the original Volo's Guides by Ed Greenwood. It's all about the interesting people and places of the Realms. The richness in detail and lore is primarily centered on that.

I thought the absolute best book for FR was the 3E Campaign Setting book. I honestly think it's one of the best RPG products I've ever read. It's so packed with ideas and hooks that any DM could draw plenty of inspiration from it. I still ise it to this day.

And you don't really need anything more than it to run a game. It's a little "dated" now because the FR timeline has jumped forward twice due to edition changes....butall that's easily ignored.

One book gives you just about all you need. If you combine it with the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, then you're definitely all set.