Sadras
Legend
If only that undead archmage githyanki had pulled out his finely-crafted sling+1 instead of casting that horrible spell, Prismatic Spray, then the table would have had soooo much more fun.
D&D 5E Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?
- Thread starter Charles Rampant
- Start date
If only that undead archmage githyanki had pulled out his finely-crafted sling+1 instead of casting that horrible spell, Prismatic Spray, then the table would have had soooo much more fun.
Soul Stigma
First Post
Late to the party, but my two cents:
I'm an advocate for fun factor. I am also a realist. Sometimes things may be "unfun" because dice misbehave and need a time out or perhaps the PCs get in over their heads (assuming the fiction has warned them).
I see no issue with the spell selection, particularly if the baddies knew the PCs were coming. With that assumption, were I the spell caster, I would damn sure gear up for onslaught with some defenses as well and perhaps an escape plan.
I will say that any character sent back to the Material should periodically get spotlight time as opposed to just being out of the fight. What kind of spotlight time? Probably their ongoing effort to find a way back to their friends (I by no means recommend having them run into a separate encounter/battle!), perhaps seeking out a powerful NPC who understands the plight.
Yes, timewise the battle will end before the PC finds a way back - but at least they're doing something.
Other than all that - working as intended - they're liches!
I'm an advocate for fun factor. I am also a realist. Sometimes things may be "unfun" because dice misbehave and need a time out or perhaps the PCs get in over their heads (assuming the fiction has warned them).
I see no issue with the spell selection, particularly if the baddies knew the PCs were coming. With that assumption, were I the spell caster, I would damn sure gear up for onslaught with some defenses as well and perhaps an escape plan.
I will say that any character sent back to the Material should periodically get spotlight time as opposed to just being out of the fight. What kind of spotlight time? Probably their ongoing effort to find a way back to their friends (I by no means recommend having them run into a separate encounter/battle!), perhaps seeking out a powerful NPC who understands the plight.
Yes, timewise the battle will end before the PC finds a way back - but at least they're doing something.
Other than all that - working as intended - they're liches!
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
I really try my best to minimize the amount a character in my games gets sidelined. I know in games that I'm in as a player, there is nothing that kills engagement more than knowing I can't do anything because I'm dying or petrified.
That being said, I have a couple of ways I have handled this in my previous games.
1) I increase the number of saving throws. Rather than one save, it becomes two or three. Each failure creates a progressively bad outcome, but does not prevent the player from acting outright. For example, let's take hitting a player with the maze spell. First fail, they would feel dizzy and restricted in their movement as they feel the space around them become like molasses. The magic is beginning to pull them into the maze. Second fail, they have disadvantage on everything as they struggle to maintain their presence in the current world and resist the spell. Third fail, they get pulled through. In this example, the player has three opportunities to not only succeed the save (you may want to make it having them hit a certain number of success before hitting a certain number of failures) but the player can attempt to actively plan and strategize with the party to deal with it. Perhaps a dispel magic or greater restoration can be cast to prevent it or give an auto-success on one on their attempts.
2) Turn it into a mini-game. In the case of maze, give the player an opportunity to get out. Just because they've been bamf'ed to somewhere else, does not mean they don't have anything to do. They may have their own threats to deal with in the maze. One time, for an in-person group, I gave one such player one of those celtic puzzles that you need to figure out a way to break it apart. If she could take it apart, the effect would end. Over internet games are a bit harder to do something similar. But at the very least, I would allow a player to in some way still be able to act and communicate with the team, even if minimally. Another example, perhaps that player that has been dropped and is dying is still able to see and communicate. They can crawl maybe 5' a round, and they can still talk. Maybe because they are watching their friends fight, the downed player can shout warnings, which could be treated as a ranged Help action (only available when dying or down but stable). That way the player still has a reason to engage AND feels like they are contributing.
That being said, I have a couple of ways I have handled this in my previous games.
1) I increase the number of saving throws. Rather than one save, it becomes two or three. Each failure creates a progressively bad outcome, but does not prevent the player from acting outright. For example, let's take hitting a player with the maze spell. First fail, they would feel dizzy and restricted in their movement as they feel the space around them become like molasses. The magic is beginning to pull them into the maze. Second fail, they have disadvantage on everything as they struggle to maintain their presence in the current world and resist the spell. Third fail, they get pulled through. In this example, the player has three opportunities to not only succeed the save (you may want to make it having them hit a certain number of success before hitting a certain number of failures) but the player can attempt to actively plan and strategize with the party to deal with it. Perhaps a dispel magic or greater restoration can be cast to prevent it or give an auto-success on one on their attempts.
2) Turn it into a mini-game. In the case of maze, give the player an opportunity to get out. Just because they've been bamf'ed to somewhere else, does not mean they don't have anything to do. They may have their own threats to deal with in the maze. One time, for an in-person group, I gave one such player one of those celtic puzzles that you need to figure out a way to break it apart. If she could take it apart, the effect would end. Over internet games are a bit harder to do something similar. But at the very least, I would allow a player to in some way still be able to act and communicate with the team, even if minimally. Another example, perhaps that player that has been dropped and is dying is still able to see and communicate. They can crawl maybe 5' a round, and they can still talk. Maybe because they are watching their friends fight, the downed player can shout warnings, which could be treated as a ranged Help action (only available when dying or down but stable). That way the player still has a reason to engage AND feels like they are contributing.
I think it's less a question of "is it fair?" but rather "is it fun?".
Most bad guys will definitely use unfair tactics if they can, but "save or suck" should be used with caution. It's hardly fun if every encounter with the evil cultists starts off with them spamming "Fear" or "Suggestion" because you know half the party has crap Wisdom saves.
On the other hand, you don't want the players to get complacent and expect every single fight to play to their strengths.
It can be hard to find the right balance.
Most bad guys will definitely use unfair tactics if they can, but "save or suck" should be used with caution. It's hardly fun if every encounter with the evil cultists starts off with them spamming "Fear" or "Suggestion" because you know half the party has crap Wisdom saves.
On the other hand, you don't want the players to get complacent and expect every single fight to play to their strengths.
It can be hard to find the right balance.
Warmaster Horus
Explorer
D&D should be fun, but it's more than that. The players are inhabiting characters in a story primarily about the PCs. The best stories have triumphs and disasters for the main characters. Some characters are imprisoned, maimed or killed (though often each of those conditions is overcome...).
So suffering from time to time, being taken out of a battle by a save-or-suck, or even being struck down by one, should be appropriate. There are activities a side-lined player can do, too, either in game or to facilitate the action while they're out. So while player fun is a dominant factor for the game, it's not the only one.
So suffering from time to time, being taken out of a battle by a save-or-suck, or even being struck down by one, should be appropriate. There are activities a side-lined player can do, too, either in game or to facilitate the action while they're out. So while player fun is a dominant factor for the game, it's not the only one.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
I'm sure I am in the minority but I have to say Fair isn't FUn...
there is a TMNT cartoon (newer one my 10 year old nephew watches) where the turtles get beat and tell splinter the fight wasn't fair to witch he responds "You want there to be a 50/50 chance of wining and loseing" witch of course isn't true.
Spells (and any special ability really) that take someone out of the adventure should be rare, and 2+ times in an encounter may be fair (good for goose, good for gander) but may impact the reason to play.
I once got told I was being a jerk for leaving a game early... the reason I left was I was imprisoned (per spell) and PCs had no way to get me out. I went and called my girlfriend and we went to the movies... (it was less than 30mins into a 5 hour game) after the movie I called and no one had a way to get me out yet...so I came back the next week with a new character. The DM said it was rude I should have stayed (I did stick around for about 15 mins after I was imprisoned) The thing was I was the only spellcaster, I knew no one could free me.
If I come to game and can't play it isn't fun. If I am DMing and an NPC gets put aside it sucks, but I have 100's of options including just keep running the next encounter, a PC does not.
there is a TMNT cartoon (newer one my 10 year old nephew watches) where the turtles get beat and tell splinter the fight wasn't fair to witch he responds "You want there to be a 50/50 chance of wining and loseing" witch of course isn't true.
Spells (and any special ability really) that take someone out of the adventure should be rare, and 2+ times in an encounter may be fair (good for goose, good for gander) but may impact the reason to play.
I once got told I was being a jerk for leaving a game early... the reason I left was I was imprisoned (per spell) and PCs had no way to get me out. I went and called my girlfriend and we went to the movies... (it was less than 30mins into a 5 hour game) after the movie I called and no one had a way to get me out yet...so I came back the next week with a new character. The DM said it was rude I should have stayed (I did stick around for about 15 mins after I was imprisoned) The thing was I was the only spellcaster, I knew no one could free me.
If I come to game and can't play it isn't fun. If I am DMing and an NPC gets put aside it sucks, but I have 100's of options including just keep running the next encounter, a PC does not.
L
lowkey13
Guest
*Deleted by user*
JonnyP71
Explorer
The DM was correct...
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
As a personal aside, I hate referencing things while playing. Therefore, I have a general idea of the spells and effects for my bad guys, then make it up on the fly. That way I focus more on the fluff, combat dynamics, and flow of story than mechanics.
Similar Threads
- Poll
AD6_gamerati_skyscraper
Recent & Upcoming Releases
-
April 16 2024 -
May 31 2024 -
June 3 2024 -
June 4 2024 -
June 18 2024 -
July 16 2024 -
September 17 2024 -
October 1 2024 -
November 12 2024 -
February 18 2025
