D&D 5E Building a better Fighter

[DaedalusX51]

OTOH, I know the fighter class is really popular and is an entry point for many new gamers. Maybe less so than back in the day, but definitely that trend of "start by playing a fighter" is alive. Because they're simple. There's a reason that DMs like to have a champion fighter pregen for one-shots or drop-in games; it's easy for a new player to pick up. A reaction based fighter would definitely up the complexity...and I'm not sure that's desirable for new players.

I started playing during 2E and having new players start with a fighter was still alive and kicking. I think at the time it was just due to the fact that it had the least moving parts compared to other classes. However, I do not think it is a healthy thing for the game to purposely single out the fighter as the simple class (especially when that option is severely underpowered). I wouldn't mind if they created simple versions of the core four and made a basic version of D&D, but that's not what they decided to do.

It's such a shame that 4E was built using only the G of GNS Theory. It had so many great ideas, but hardly any of the mechanics matched the narrative. I think the surge of D&D support with 5e is because they brought back a story first attitude and had game mechanics attempt to match the in game fiction. If only we could get some of those interesting gameplay mechanics in this edition, I would be super happy.

 

[Gladius Legis]

(Of course, the above also isn't taking into account the typical stuff Fighters do to make sure their Action Surge hits for everything or close to it, e.g. making sure they have advantage, using Precision Attack on narrow misses, getting Blessed by the Paladin or Cleric, etc. And we haven't even gotten into the feats part of the whole equation, which also greatly favors the Fighter because of (a) their 3rd and 4th attacks, and (b) the extra feats they get at Lv. 6 and 14.)

 

[JeffB]

-reminiscing

AD&D was the beginning of the end for the Fighter. The original UA weapon specialization helped (I did not find it problematic). But the OD&D Fighting Man as represented in Greyhawk was the star of the show until very high levels, at which point you retired him anyway. Best hit points and AC by far. Nearly all magical weaponry was only usable by them. Only class that received an Armor Class bonus due to dexterity ("parry") and the only class benefiting from a bonus "to hit" and"damage" due to high Strength. And the multiple "horde/minion" attacks per level.

AD&D changed so many things. Removing all the exclusives, and really building up the casters and fighter subclasses. 5e has the same "legacy" issues.

 

[DaedalusX51]

Your calculations are waaaaaaaaay off. An 11th-level Fighter (or Paladin) is going to hit that Hobgoblin better than 45 percent of the time. +9 to hit AC 18 is a 60% chance to hit.

Also telling that even when calculating by level, you fail to account for the different proficiency bonuses by levels. Lv. 13-16 characters will hit the AC 18 Hobgoblin 65% of the time, and Lv. 17-20 characters 70%.

You're also ignoring Fighting Style. Great Weapon Fighting makes 2d6 = 8.33

So for the Fighter, Action Surge SHOULD add/day:
Lv. 11: .6(2d6r1&2+5)*9 = 72.0
Lv. 15: .65(2d6r1&2+5)*9 = 78.0
Lv. 19: .7(2d6r1&2+5)*18 = 168.0
Lv. 20: .7(2d6r1&2+5)*24 = 223.9

Add the Superiority Dice to those figures and the Battle Master will push well ahead of the Paladin on damage from daily resources at Lv. 20. And much sooner than that if the Fighter uses Riposte all the time.

But then again, that's only comparing daily resources, which leads to this:

At-will DPR, great weapon, GWF Style:
Fighter 11: 3*.6*(2d6r1&2+5) = 24.0
Paladin 11: 2*.6*(2d6r1&2+1d8+5) = 21.4

The Fighter with a great weapon is doing 2.6 more DPR at-will. Taken over a 32-round day (8 encounters of avg. 4 rounds each), that's an advantage of 83.2 in favor of the Fighter at-will. More than enough to overtake any difference in daily resources vs. the Paladin at any level.

See all you have to do is post something wrong and the internet will fix it for you! Thanks for the corrections.

It does look like with better math the Battle Master is coming in at a much more acceptable level. However unless there is something I missed, the Champion is still severely lagging behind. Would you agree that is still the case?

 

[Gladius Legis]

See all you have to do is post something wrong and the internet will fix it for you! Thanks for the corrections.

It does look like with better math the Battle Master is coming in at a much more acceptable level. However unless there is something I missed, the Champion is still severely lagging behind. Would you agree that is still the case?

Depends on how you define "severely," but yeah, the Champion lags behind the Battle Master.

Here's calculations I made between the two over the course of a 30-round day, taking crit ranges and crit damage into account since they're relevant with the Champion in play.

vs. AC 13 + proficiency bonus (65% chance to hit)
30 rounds of combat/day, 2 short rests/day
All characters with greatsword + GWF Style and 20 STR

Champion
Lv. 11: 33*3*(.55*13.33 + .10*21.67) = 940.4
Lv. 15: 33*3*(.5*13.33 + .15*21.67) = 981.6
Lv. 19: 36*3*(.5*13.33 + .15*21.67) = 1,070.9
Lv. 20: 36*4*(.5*13.33 + .15*21.67) = 1,427.8

Battle Master
Lv. 11: 33*3*(.6*13.33 + .05*21.67) + 15*5.5 + 8*6.7 = 1,033.4
Lv. 15: 33*3*(.6*13.33 + .05*21.67) + 21*5.5 + 11*6.7 = 1,088.3
Lv. 19: 36*3*(.6*13.33 + .05*21.67) + 21*6.5 + 11*6.4 = 1,187.7
Lv. 20: 36*4*(.6*13.33 + .05*21.67) + 21*6.5 + 11*6.4 = 1,514.6
* Riposte Lv. 11-17 roughly equals .65*(13.33+5.5) = 12.2, vs. 5.5 of on-hit maneuver, difference of 6.7 per SD.
* Riposte Lv. 18-20 roughly equals .65*(13.33+6.5) = 12.9, vs. 6.5 of on-hit maneuver, difference of 6.4 per SD.
* For simplicity's sake, assume half of SDs (rounded up) are used on Ripostes, and other half (rounded down) are on-hit maneuvers.
* For simplicity's sake, assume recovery of 1 SD w/ Relentless between rests (so 3 more SDs/day).

And for good measure, three types of Paladins, w/ same weapon, vs. same ACs, also 30-round combat days:

Paladin of Devotion
Lv. 11 (16 CHA): 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.75*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 175.5 = 973.6
Lv. 15 (16 CHA): 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.75*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 229.5 = 1,027.6
Lv. 19 (20 CHA): 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.85*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 310.5 = 1,151.4
Lv. 20 (20 CHA): 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.85*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 310.5 = 1,151.4 (+ Holy Nimbus vs. horde)
* All spell slots on Divine Smite
* All Channel Divinity (3/day) on Sacred Weapon. 12 rounds (3 4 round fights).

Paladin of Vengeance
Lv. 11: 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.78*17.83 + .0975*30.67) + 175.5 = 1,021.4
Lv. 15: 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.78*17.83 + .0975*30.67) + 229.5 = 1,075.4 (+ Soul of Vengeance)
Lv. 19: 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.78*17.83 + .0975*30.67) + 310.5 = 1,156.4 (+ Soul of Vengeance)
Lv. 20: 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.78*17.83 + .0975*30.67) + 310.5 = 1,156.4 (+ Soul of Vengeance, + Avenging Angel advantage vs. horde)
* All spell slots on Divine Smite
* All Channel Divinty (3/day) on Vow of Enmity. 12 rounds (3 4-round fights).

Oathbreaker Paladin
Lv. 11 (16 CHA): 30*2*(.6*20.83 + .05*33.67) + 175.5 = 1,026.4
Lv. 15 (16 CHA): 30*2*(.6*20.83 + .05*33.67) + 229.5 = 1,080.4
Lv. 19 (20 CHA): 30*2*(.6*22.83 + .05*35.67) + 310.5 = 1,239.4
Lv. 20 (20 CHA): 30*2*(.6*22.83 + .05*35.67) + 310.5 = 1,239.4 (+ capstone reaction ability)
* All spell slots on Divine Smite
* Moving parts including any controlled undead from Channel Divinity.

 

[Sacrosanct]

-reminiscing

AD&D was the beginning of the end for the Fighter. The original UA weapon specialization helped (I did not find it problematic). But the OD&D Fighting Man as represented in Greyhawk was the star of the show until very high levels, at which point you retired him anyway. Best hit points and AC by far. Nearly all magical weaponry was only usable by them. Only class that received an Armor Class bonus due to dexterity ("parry") and the only class benefiting from a bonus "to hit" and"damage" due to high Strength. And the multiple "horde/minion" attacks per level.

AD&D changed so many things. Removing all the exclusives, and really building up the casters and fighter subclasses. 5e has the same "legacy" issues.

I don't think AD&D was the beginning of the end. Even in AD&D, fighters still had the best armor and weapons and hp and reliable damage (until high levels when as you say they were retired anyway). AD&D was heavy into magic items, and only fighters could use the most amount. They were also the only class that could stand up to an ancient dragon's breath weapon and still survive.

IMO, the end of the fighter was when the design shifted to "we need to make sure every class is just as capable in combat as every other class." When niche protection was tossed out of the window.

 

[FrogReaver]

Depends on how you define "severely," but yeah, the Champion lags behind the Battle Master.

Here's calculations I made between the two over the course of a 30-round day, taking crit ranges and crit damage into account since they're relevant with the Champion in play.

vs. AC 13 + proficiency bonus (65% chance to hit)
30 rounds of combat/day, 2 short rests/day
All characters with greatsword + GWF Style and 20 STR

Champion
Lv. 11: 33*3*(.55*13.33 + .10*21.67) = 940.4
Lv. 15: 33*3*(.5*13.33 + .15*21.67) = 981.6
Lv. 19: 36*3*(.5*13.33 + .15*21.67) = 1,070.9
Lv. 20: 36*4*(.5*13.33 + .15*21.67) = 1,427.8

Battle Master
Lv. 11: 33*3*(.6*13.33 + .05*21.67) + 15*5.5 + 8*6.7 = 1,033.4
Lv. 15: 33*3*(.6*13.33 + .05*21.67) + 21*5.5 + 11*6.7 = 1,088.3
Lv. 19: 36*3*(.6*13.33 + .05*21.67) + 21*6.5 + 11*6.4 = 1,187.7
Lv. 20: 36*4*(.6*13.33 + .05*21.67) + 21*6.5 + 11*6.4 = 1,514.6
* Riposte Lv. 11-17 roughly equals .65*(13.33+5.5) = 12.2, vs. 5.5 of on-hit maneuver, difference of 6.7 per SD.
* Riposte Lv. 18-20 roughly equals .65*(13.33+6.5) = 12.9, vs. 6.5 of on-hit maneuver, difference of 6.4 per SD.
* For simplicity's sake, assume half of SDs (rounded up) are used on Ripostes, and other half (rounded down) are on-hit maneuvers.
* For simplicity's sake, assume recovery of 1 SD w/ Relentless between rests (so 3 more SDs/day).

And for good measure, three types of Paladins, w/ same weapon, vs. same ACs, also 30-round combat days:

Paladin of Devotion
Lv. 11 (16 CHA): 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.75*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 175.5 = 973.6
Lv. 15 (16 CHA): 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.75*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 229.5 = 1,027.6
Lv. 19 (20 CHA): 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.85*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 310.5 = 1,151.4
Lv. 20 (20 CHA): 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.85*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 310.5 = 1,151.4 (+ Holy Nimbus vs. horde)
* All spell slots on Divine Smite
* All Channel Divinity (3/day) on Sacred Weapon. 12 rounds (3 4 round fights).

Paladin of Vengeance
Lv. 11: 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.78*17.83 + .0975*30.67) + 175.5 = 1,021.4
Lv. 15: 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.78*17.83 + .0975*30.67) + 229.5 = 1,075.4 (+ Soul of Vengeance)
Lv. 19: 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.78*17.83 + .0975*30.67) + 310.5 = 1,156.4 (+ Soul of Vengeance)
Lv. 20: 18*2*(.6*17.83 + .05*30.67) + 12*2*(.78*17.83 + .0975*30.67) + 310.5 = 1,156.4 (+ Soul of Vengeance, + Avenging Angel advantage vs. horde)
* All spell slots on Divine Smite
* All Channel Divinty (3/day) on Vow of Enmity. 12 rounds (3 4-round fights).

Oathbreaker Paladin
Lv. 11 (16 CHA): 30*2*(.6*20.83 + .05*33.67) + 175.5 = 1,026.4
Lv. 15 (16 CHA): 30*2*(.6*20.83 + .05*33.67) + 229.5 = 1,080.4
Lv. 19 (20 CHA): 30*2*(.6*22.83 + .05*35.67) + 310.5 = 1,239.4
Lv. 20 (20 CHA): 30*2*(.6*22.83 + .05*35.67) + 310.5 = 1,239.4 (+ capstone reaction ability)
* All spell slots on Divine Smite
* Moving parts including any controlled undead from Channel Divinity.

One slight observation. GWM gets a bonus action on a crit that should be factored in. Given 4 attacks a round at max level that ability comes up often enough to matter. Also precision attack when used in intelligent manner adds more damage per dice than any other maneuver as long as you are using the -5/+10 option.

 

[Quickleaf]

-reminiscing

AD&D was the beginning of the end for the Fighter. The original UA weapon specialization helped (I did not find it problematic). But the OD&D Fighting Man as represented in Greyhawk was the star of the show until very high levels, at which point you retired him anyway. Best hit points and AC by far. Nearly all magical weaponry was only usable by them. Only class that received an Armor Class bonus due to dexterity ("parry") and the only class benefiting from a bonus "to hit" and"damage" due to high Strength. And the multiple "horde/minion" attacks per level.

AD&D changed so many things. Removing all the exclusives, and really building up the casters and fighter subclasses. 5e has the same "legacy" issues.

It would be interesting to see elements of the OD&D Fighting Man incorporated into a 5e fighter.

For example, magic weapons might have the properties in the DMG, and then there's a secret property that only a fighter meeting whatever requisites attuning to the magic weapon can "unlock." Narratively, this might be a "hero of destiny" thing.

Another example would be replacing Second Wind with a Parry feature (similar to the Battle Master's maneuver, but more at-will), emulating the "parry" of OD&D.

Another example would be replacing Action Surge with a "Horde Breaker" feature, emulating the multiple "horde/minion" attacks of OD&D.

A lot of that actually went into my design for my Warrior homebrew.

 

[Gladius Legis]

One slight observation. GWM gets a bonus action on a crit that should be factored in. Given 4 attacks a round at max level that ability comes up often enough to matter. Also precision attack when used in intelligent manner adds more damage per dice than any other maneuver as long as you are using the -5/+10 option.

I didn't factor in GWM for that set of calculations, though I might in another post.

 

[Ovarwa]

Interesting. A Warlock at level 17 running Hex and Foresight continually does 49.14 round with EB+AB under these conditions, or 1474.2. At level 11 (no Foresight ), 819.