I allow fighter types to impress soldiers and peasant folk. Reputation matters. It's hard to evaluate PCs in a vacuum of pure mathematics. I'm thinking I might adopt a hybrid of these changes to battlemaster. One extra superiority die per allocation, one extra manoeuvre known per allocation, reduce superior manoeuvres to two per allocation, use the expanded choices from the 5minute work day fan supplement plus the feat gives two dice and one extra manoeuvre if the fighter wants to expand even more. Allow the same expansion for the sub classes too.
D&D 5E Building a better Fighter
DaedalusX51
Explorer
I've updated the Reaction based Fighter idea I posted earlier in this thread. If anyone is still interested, let me know your thoughts.
http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BJX-IRuOXW
http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BJX-IRuOXW
The 5e fighter is kind of a lost cause. It tries to be too many things at once and is therefor unable to focus on any one particular thing or be truly unique. It has to be the "simple" class for the grognards. The epic legendary warrior. The heavily armored knight. The agile knife fighter. The swift archer. The tough as nails brute. The dashing swordsman. Instead of fulfilling any of those archetypes well, it really falls flat and ends up as little more than Extra Attacks! the class.
I would have really enjoyed a fighter who utilized stamina or rage as a limited resource to fuel interesting martial exploits. Such a fighter could have had heroic talents (the martial equivalent of warlock invocations) to help flesh out particular tropes such as cunning, daring, wits, agility, and the like. But really, to make the 5e fighter into something I would actually enjoy playing would require a complete redesign that would probably be too much work. So it is probably better to leave the fighter as is, and go with the 3e approach of creating a new kind of martial class.
Some of my favorite classes from 3e were the martial adepts, warriors who learned epic maneuvers allowing them to perform martial feats far beyond what their mundane counterparts were capable of. These martial adepts had a number of options, giving them meaningful tactical choices to make on a round by round basis.
I decided to try my hand at creating a 5e version of the 3e martial adepts. The Swordsage is a weapon using martial combatant who combines strength of arms and ki use to produce incredible effects.
The class is primarily designed to fill a mobile skirmisher role, much like a rogue or monk, with slightly more emphasis on combat prowess and less on battlefield control or utility.
The class is somewhat less durable than a fighter, paladin, or barbarian, and also deals less damage than those classes, but has a variety of martial options that allow it to perform well against in a number of combat situations.
Let me know what you think of the class and if you think any abilities should be modified.
Here is a detailed damage analysis between the fighter, swordsage, paladin, and barbarian for those who are curious.
I would have really enjoyed a fighter who utilized stamina or rage as a limited resource to fuel interesting martial exploits. Such a fighter could have had heroic talents (the martial equivalent of warlock invocations) to help flesh out particular tropes such as cunning, daring, wits, agility, and the like. But really, to make the 5e fighter into something I would actually enjoy playing would require a complete redesign that would probably be too much work. So it is probably better to leave the fighter as is, and go with the 3e approach of creating a new kind of martial class.
Some of my favorite classes from 3e were the martial adepts, warriors who learned epic maneuvers allowing them to perform martial feats far beyond what their mundane counterparts were capable of. These martial adepts had a number of options, giving them meaningful tactical choices to make on a round by round basis.
I decided to try my hand at creating a 5e version of the 3e martial adepts. The Swordsage is a weapon using martial combatant who combines strength of arms and ki use to produce incredible effects.
The class is primarily designed to fill a mobile skirmisher role, much like a rogue or monk, with slightly more emphasis on combat prowess and less on battlefield control or utility.
The class is somewhat less durable than a fighter, paladin, or barbarian, and also deals less damage than those classes, but has a variety of martial options that allow it to perform well against in a number of combat situations.
Let me know what you think of the class and if you think any abilities should be modified.
Here is a detailed damage analysis between the fighter, swordsage, paladin, and barbarian for those who are curious.
DaedalusX51
Explorer
I've updated my idea with design notes and additional subclasses. I appreciate the feedback.
http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BJX-IRuOXW
snickersnax
Explorer
I agree with so many of the flaws that you see with the fighter and I like the idea of giving fighters extra reactions. I think that there is one more problem that you have not addressed and in fact exacerbated with your additional level 2 feature. The fighter is already too heavily front loaded.
Action surge is such a strong feature that it eclipses many weak capstones by itself. A two level dip into your homebrewed fighter now gives: proficiency with light and medium armor, shields, simple and martial weapons, fighting style, second wind, action surge and combat reflexes. There are few classes where level 19 and 20 would not be better served by taking them as fighter, and in many instances should probably be taken much sooner.
I wish I had a simple suggestion to make it better, but I don't. Mostly because I would rather see 1st and 2nd level be more like apprentice levels rather bestowing class defining expertise.
DaedalusX51
Explorer
Yeah I agree with you, but i'm not quite sure how to fully tackle that.
It seems the problem is that short rest abilities are equivalent to 3 long rest abilities. Since narratively a short rest makes sense as a limiter for martial actions we run into the issue that we are given more upfront to compensate.
I guess we could try changing short rest abilities to to a points system like ki which you gain more points of as you level. Then you could gain action surge, indomitable, and second wind all at low level, but you would have limited number of uses based on how you spent your points.
Honestly that's not too bad of an idea. Doing this and moving a couple of features around could help. However, at that point it wouldn't really resemble the current Fighter. (Is that a good or bad thing?)
Tony Vargas
Legend
It could conceivably be moved to the Champion sub-class. BM could get much-improved, and even-more-much-improved-level-gated maneuvers to compensate for the loss. EK could get 1/2-caster progression instead "1/3rd."
Another possibility is for Action Surge and Second Wind to be forfeited if you multiclass. For instance, if you MC into an 'arcane' class, you lose Action Surge; if you MC into a 'divine' class, you lose Second Wind. (Or, alternately, you cannot use Action Surge to cast a spell, and cannot use Second Wind on a turn that you expend a slot.)
Push more class features to the sub-classes, would be my solution. Has the advantage of being able to make more distinct sub-classes, too.
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Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
So after reading this thread and several others regarding fighters, I have decided to implement a few changes to the Fighter class in my games. Many of these have already been implemented (though no one has yet wanted to go fighter in my games, so play-testing has been nil), but a few are new ideas. I'll detail my changes, as well as my reasoning behind the change:
Level 2 - Shrewd Fighting
Level 6 - Action Surge
Level 14 - Action Surge (twice per day), Steel Resolve (Add half proficiency bonus to any save you are not already proficient with)
Level 17 - Extra Attack (4 attacks total), Indomitable (3 Uses)
Level 20 - Fighting Style Mastery
Shrewd Fighting - Starting at 2nd level, your skill and reflexes in combat have improved. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Grapple, Shove, or Disarm action.
Reasoning - I think the general chassis of the Fighter can be improved by allowing more options to utilize and encourage attempting things other than attack. I've seen many argue that creativity in role play can prevent this, but by outlining these action options within the fighters skills, rather than just in the Combat Actions section of the PHB, it brings it more to the front of the player's mind as an option. Also, Action Surge is an AMAZING ability and with that being at second level, the fighter is a popular dip class. Offering this at 2nd and moving Action Surge a bit later can discourage those dips.
Action Surge Changes
Reasoning - As I mentioned above, I think Action Surge makes Fighter dips very appealing. Not that dips are necessarily a bad thing, but I think such a powerful ability should be earned. However, while it is a great ability, I think waiting until level 17 to get it again is perhaps too long. Also, I don't agree that the Fighter should be the master of feats or ASIs. While that was the approach in 3e, I think it made more sense given the prevalence and power of feats, as well as how specialized feat trees could get. 5e has a much different approach, and so I am trying to have the Fighter distance itself from the 3/3.5 version.
Steel Resolve - Starting at 14th level, you can add half your proficiency modifier to any saving throw that you are not already proficient in.
Reasoning- Another ability that I saw as being worthy of taking the place of an ASI/feat. It is somewhat similar in power level to the Resilient feat, but rather than grant proficiency in one good save you get half-proficiency in 2 good saves (when I say good saves, I mean Con, Dex, Wis, in my opinion the others are of negligible value).
Extra Attack - The 4th fighter attack is great, but not worthy of a capstone ability. Especially if you compare it to a Cleric getting a personal favor from their god, guaranteed, or how a Paladin becomes the avatar of their oath. It's boring for a capstone. Also, it breaks the expected math. Cantrips get their 4th damage dice at level 17, and looking at the extra attack levels in the fighter table, they clearly set that up as the pattern but then for no reason artificially delayed it. So I have greated my own unique capstones based on the fighting style chosen by the fighter that expands on that style. I won't share the specific capstones, as they are still somewhat in development. But if you are curious I have posted them previously on the board before.
Indomitable - Now Indomitable allows the fighter to treat their save as if they rolled a 20. Nothing sucks worse than using Indomitable on a Wisdom save and still failing.
Battle Master Changes
Know Your Enemy - So with this one, it almost seems like the level 7 archetype ability is a ribbon ability. However, unlike the Champion and EK, this ability doesn't really have any impact on the game. It fits with the BM, for sure in being able to size up an opponent, but after 1 min or 3 rounds of combat you probably don't need that info anymore. The other abilities will get tons of play, this one not so much. So instead, my thought is to change this to Battlefield Mobility, allowing the BM to add their proficiency bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity. In my head, the Battle Master is the trickier, finesse-ier fighter that is going to work to move around the field. This way, its power is inline with the others, but it has a more observable and consistent impact in the game.
Relentless - I personally think you should get 2 dice instead of just one.
Champion
Improve/Superior Critical - I think this should become Improved/Superior Combat and in addition to the increased threat range, the Champion gains a +2 to damage each time they get this ability. This way, the Champion feels like their ability is always on, they don't have to rely on the fickle dice gods for their power to come through, and it maintains the simplicity of the archetype.
Remarkable Athlete - This should allow adding the bonus on top of proficiency if they have it. The fighter already gets so few skills as it is, it's not going to break anything and will make the ability feel more useful.
Eldritch Knight
Eldritch Charge - I feel that it is too limiting to only allow this ability during an action surge. With this limitation, it is much weaker than the same level abilities of the other archetypes. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem and think it would be interesting to just allow the EK to Misty Step at will. If you compare to, for instance, Warlock invocations, a misty step invocation would likely be placed at level 15, so it seems the right power level.
Level 2 - Shrewd Fighting
Level 6 - Action Surge
Level 14 - Action Surge (twice per day), Steel Resolve (Add half proficiency bonus to any save you are not already proficient with)
Level 17 - Extra Attack (4 attacks total), Indomitable (3 Uses)
Level 20 - Fighting Style Mastery
Shrewd Fighting - Starting at 2nd level, your skill and reflexes in combat have improved. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Grapple, Shove, or Disarm action.
Reasoning - I think the general chassis of the Fighter can be improved by allowing more options to utilize and encourage attempting things other than attack. I've seen many argue that creativity in role play can prevent this, but by outlining these action options within the fighters skills, rather than just in the Combat Actions section of the PHB, it brings it more to the front of the player's mind as an option. Also, Action Surge is an AMAZING ability and with that being at second level, the fighter is a popular dip class. Offering this at 2nd and moving Action Surge a bit later can discourage those dips.
Action Surge Changes
Reasoning - As I mentioned above, I think Action Surge makes Fighter dips very appealing. Not that dips are necessarily a bad thing, but I think such a powerful ability should be earned. However, while it is a great ability, I think waiting until level 17 to get it again is perhaps too long. Also, I don't agree that the Fighter should be the master of feats or ASIs. While that was the approach in 3e, I think it made more sense given the prevalence and power of feats, as well as how specialized feat trees could get. 5e has a much different approach, and so I am trying to have the Fighter distance itself from the 3/3.5 version.
Steel Resolve - Starting at 14th level, you can add half your proficiency modifier to any saving throw that you are not already proficient in.
Reasoning- Another ability that I saw as being worthy of taking the place of an ASI/feat. It is somewhat similar in power level to the Resilient feat, but rather than grant proficiency in one good save you get half-proficiency in 2 good saves (when I say good saves, I mean Con, Dex, Wis, in my opinion the others are of negligible value).
Extra Attack - The 4th fighter attack is great, but not worthy of a capstone ability. Especially if you compare it to a Cleric getting a personal favor from their god, guaranteed, or how a Paladin becomes the avatar of their oath. It's boring for a capstone. Also, it breaks the expected math. Cantrips get their 4th damage dice at level 17, and looking at the extra attack levels in the fighter table, they clearly set that up as the pattern but then for no reason artificially delayed it. So I have greated my own unique capstones based on the fighting style chosen by the fighter that expands on that style. I won't share the specific capstones, as they are still somewhat in development. But if you are curious I have posted them previously on the board before.
Indomitable - Now Indomitable allows the fighter to treat their save as if they rolled a 20. Nothing sucks worse than using Indomitable on a Wisdom save and still failing.
Battle Master Changes
Know Your Enemy - So with this one, it almost seems like the level 7 archetype ability is a ribbon ability. However, unlike the Champion and EK, this ability doesn't really have any impact on the game. It fits with the BM, for sure in being able to size up an opponent, but after 1 min or 3 rounds of combat you probably don't need that info anymore. The other abilities will get tons of play, this one not so much. So instead, my thought is to change this to Battlefield Mobility, allowing the BM to add their proficiency bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity. In my head, the Battle Master is the trickier, finesse-ier fighter that is going to work to move around the field. This way, its power is inline with the others, but it has a more observable and consistent impact in the game.
Relentless - I personally think you should get 2 dice instead of just one.
Champion
Improve/Superior Critical - I think this should become Improved/Superior Combat and in addition to the increased threat range, the Champion gains a +2 to damage each time they get this ability. This way, the Champion feels like their ability is always on, they don't have to rely on the fickle dice gods for their power to come through, and it maintains the simplicity of the archetype.
Remarkable Athlete - This should allow adding the bonus on top of proficiency if they have it. The fighter already gets so few skills as it is, it's not going to break anything and will make the ability feel more useful.
Eldritch Knight
Eldritch Charge - I feel that it is too limiting to only allow this ability during an action surge. With this limitation, it is much weaker than the same level abilities of the other archetypes. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem and think it would be interesting to just allow the EK to Misty Step at will. If you compare to, for instance, Warlock invocations, a misty step invocation would likely be placed at level 15, so it seems the right power level.
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The Old Crow
Explorer
I like this. It is similar to Cunning Action, and would allow the Fighter to feel fightery every fight, all day. I would give up Action Surge for this for that reason alone.
Yup, I want features instead of ASI's.
I like this one, too. It is good for the front line people who are likely to walk into trouble first.
17th is were casters get their 9th level spells. It seems appropriate to me that Fighters should get their 4th attack here too.
Are 3/day too many?
Know Your Enemy is a good recon and social skill. You are right that it has limited use in battle, but Fighters really need things they can do when they are not in battle. This can make them good at gathering certain types of information .
Or a phantom die, that you get every battle, that is used before you dip into the pool of superiority dice.
I am part of that small minority that doesn't like critical hits, so I like the idea of an always on damage bonus for that reason, but also because it would let the champion do good damage reliably, rather than randomly, thus more like an old school fighter. Battle Masters have the advantage of choosing when they will do their extra damage, which makes it more effective when compared to critical hits.
All for this one.
I don't have any opinions on Eldrich Knights, as no one in my group has played one as of yet.
All in all, I like this take on the Fighter class.
(I'll edit this later to comment on the rest, turns out I need to go somewhere now.Edit: Now edited.)
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Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
Well I appreciate the feedback and I look forward to what you have to say regarding the final part of my post. In the meantimeI'll respond to what you've said thus far.
This is my thought as well, and it's pretty obvious I used the Rogue as a basis for comparison. I have previously noticed how the archetypes developed for the Rogue share a similar design philosophy to the Fighter (One simple, one a bit more advanced/thematic, and the magic user), but yet we don't hear nearly the outcry about the Rogue archetypes as you hear about the fighter. I am beginning to think this lies not with the archetype but with the core class.
Especially given that feats are technically an optional rule, this just makes sense to me.
My thoughts as well. Monks get proficiency in every save AND can reroll saves (using their good saver mod). Between this and the max 3/long rest of my adjusted Indomitable, seems about equivalent.
I forgot about the 9th level spells. Excellent point!
I wonder about this too. Not sure honestly. I think it would be fine based on how my table plays. But most tables won't get high enough level to more than one or two per days, which is fine.
I agree that Know Your Enemy is a neat ability and allows the fighter some of that social interation. But honestly as a DM, you don't need an outright ability like this to size up and opponent, just to make sure you get it accurately. I know this contradicts what I said earlier in reference to the Shrewd Fighting. But when you compare this ability to the other abilities given to the other archetypes at this level, it is far too limited to provide any real use and is the only one with any measurable mechanical benefit. I pondered allowing a player to use it after one round of combat observation and allowing their first attack against that target to have advantage until the end of combat, but I felt that was overly complicated and clunky.
This is my thought as well, and it's pretty obvious I used the Rogue as a basis for comparison. I have previously noticed how the archetypes developed for the Rogue share a similar design philosophy to the Fighter (One simple, one a bit more advanced/thematic, and the magic user), but yet we don't hear nearly the outcry about the Rogue archetypes as you hear about the fighter. I am beginning to think this lies not with the archetype but with the core class.
Especially given that feats are technically an optional rule, this just makes sense to me.
My thoughts as well. Monks get proficiency in every save AND can reroll saves (using their good saver mod). Between this and the max 3/long rest of my adjusted Indomitable, seems about equivalent.
I forgot about the 9th level spells. Excellent point!
I wonder about this too. Not sure honestly. I think it would be fine based on how my table plays. But most tables won't get high enough level to more than one or two per days, which is fine.
I agree that Know Your Enemy is a neat ability and allows the fighter some of that social interation. But honestly as a DM, you don't need an outright ability like this to size up and opponent, just to make sure you get it accurately. I know this contradicts what I said earlier in reference to the Shrewd Fighting. But when you compare this ability to the other abilities given to the other archetypes at this level, it is far too limited to provide any real use and is the only one with any measurable mechanical benefit. I pondered allowing a player to use it after one round of combat observation and allowing their first attack against that target to have advantage until the end of combat, but I felt that was overly complicated and clunky.
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