D&D 5E Whip House Rule proposal

[Cutterjack]

I've seen a lot of posts about making the whip a better weapon. Here's my thoughts:

Whip is a special weapon
"When proficient, you may use the whip to initiate the grapple or shove attack action."

1) Allows grapple or shove at reach. This allows for the cool factor of tripping and wrapping the whip around body parts.
2) It is not a weapon attack so I don't think that allows any additional effects while grappling.
3)Because you are making an attack action with a weapon, it would allow someone with the Dual Wielder feat to use their bonus action for a 2nd attack.

The max optimization I can see is:
A dual class Fighter/Rogue with Two Weapon style, the Dual Wielder feat and two whips could use the Shove action at reach to knock an opponent prone, then attack at advantage with their Sneak attack dice.

Am I missing anything?


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[cmad1977]

Maybe give advantage against the ranged shove in some instances? Larger creatures maybe?
I'd be a bit worried by the power of knocking people over at range but then again, given that shove is a STR check, I imagine most whip wielders aren't pumped up to 20 Str...
So....

Looks fine to me. Especially if it costs a feat or something to be able to use.


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[jaelis]

I imagine most whip wielders aren't pumped up to 20 Str...

That's only because the existing whip isn't that great a weapon for a Str character. With the rules suggested here, I guess that everyone would carry a whip.

Being able to grapple and shove prone at a distance is pretty powerful. It's not hard to get your Athletics check sky high, making it difficult for targets to escape. And if they don't have reach or range, they lose the ability to attack you back. It seems like the best exploit would be to just knock prone, grapple, and then kill them from a distance with impunity. And don't forget there are plenty of ways to extend your reach even further (lunging attack, for instance).

As for the rules mechanics, you should clarify whether it is possible to attack someone with a whip if you already used the whip to grapple them. I guess probably not.

If I was after a similar thing, I think that I would just house rule that you can use a whip to make a trip attack, following the normal shove prone rules. I'd keep grappling out of it.

 

[Cutterjack]

Maybe give advantage against the ranged shove in some instances? Larger creatures maybe?
I'd be a bit worried by the power of knocking people over at range but then again, given that shove is a STR check, I imagine most whip wielders aren't pumped up to 20 Str...
So....

Looks fine to me. Especially if it costs a feat or something to be able to use.


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Do you think it would need be a separate feat? Without dual class and dual wielder a fighter could use the whip for grapple attempts at reach and a rogue would need to take the weapons master(?) feat just to wield it.

Either way it's giving up damage for grappling.

I believe a rogue ( no TWF style) wouldn't be able to add his attribute bonus to his sneak attack since it would be his bonus action attack after the shove.

 

[Cutterjack]

And if they don't have reach or range, they lose the ability to attack you back. It seems like the best exploit would be to just knock prone, grapple, and then kill them from a distance with impunity.

I didn't think if this. I'm actually building a whip and dagger fighter/rogue so I didn't think out the two whip build as much. That would be a little broken.

As for the rules mechanics, you should clarify whether it is possible to attack someone with a whip

No. Again this was with two whips.

If I was after a similar thing, I think that I would just house rule that you can use a whip to make a trip attack, following the normal shove prone rules.

I just feel like there should be more but the two whip "destroy at range" is extreme.

 

[Cutterjack]

Sorry. New to the forum and messed up the quotes.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That's only because the existing whip isn't that great a weapon for a Str character. With the rules suggested here, I guess that everyone would carry a whip.

Being able to grapple and shove prone at a distance is pretty powerful. It's not hard to get your Athletics check sky high, making it difficult for targets to escape. And if they don't have reach or range, they lose the ability to attack you back. It seems like the best exploit would be to just knock prone, grapple, and then kill them from a distance with impunity. And don't forget there are plenty of ways to extend your reach even further (lunging attack, for instance).

To be fair: if you can knock someone prone and grapple them there, you can already kill with them nigh-impunity already if you have a decent AC. Grapple/prone turns a fair fight (50/50) into a horribly-skewed contest along the lines of 80/20.

Furthermore, if they're 10' away from you, you don't want them to be prone because that would impose disadvantage on your attacks. You only get advantage from 5' away or less.

But, I think I would not use the suggested houserule for whips. You can already use Nets for this scenario anyway; and it doesn't really make sense to me that a whip would be able to leverage your Athletics skill. I think the most I'd consider is allowing you to use a whip as a sort of improvised Net, despite the differences in construction: attack at disadvantage with your whip, and if you hit, the target is restrained per Net rules until it escapes or the whip is destroyed by damage.

 

[jaelis]

To be fair: if you can knock someone prone and grapple them there, you can already kill with them nigh-impunity already if you have a decent AC. Grapple/prone turns a fair fight (50/50) into a horribly-skewed contest along the lines of 80/20.

True but at least they can fight back. And it's not so easy to optimize both grappling and AC, I feel like.

Furthermore, if they're 10' away from you, you don't want them to be prone because that would impose disadvantage on your attacks. You only get advantage from 5' away or less.

Fair enough, no need to prone. They still can't move to attack you even if they are standing.

I didn't think if this. I'm actually building a whip and dagger fighter/rogue so I didn't think out the two whip build as much. That would be a little broken.

So two whips aren't needed. Even if you did want to prone them, that could just be done with one whip and your second attack.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

True but at least they can fight back. And it's not so easy to optimize both grappling and AC, I feel like.

True. You never have enough hands for shield + weapon + grapple.

 

[Cutterjack]

True. You never have enough hands for shield + weapon + grapple.

You might not have enough hands but it's fun to do it with spiritual weapon!