D&D 5E Why stop at Level 20?

[TheCosmicKid]

3E core was capped at level 20, but they created a book for epic level adventuring that I know very little about.

They did, but the system math (which was already on shaky footing in the 15-20 range) broke down completely. And the content was clearly un-playtested -- yet another problem with developing for high level.

I personally like the unlimited levels of OD&D and 1E, where you pay more for less after a point. I'm fine with 5E's setup though, because it keeps the 1 level multi-class dips balanced (losing the capstone class ability).

The percentage of campaigns that even get to 20 is minuscule. This may be something of a balancing mechanic for people crafting 20th-level "builds", but its relevance in campaign play is slight.

 

[Wulffolk]

Once I got past junior high school, and the Monty Hall phase that my group of friends went through, I never really enjoyed playing high levels. My favorite character from that era was a Half-Elf Ranger that I retired at 14th level.

So, for myself and those that I tend to play with the real question is "Why bother even playing all the way to 20th, let alone going beyond that?". Anything past 12th level just seems like overkill to me.

However, the game is what you make of it. So, if you and your group have fun playing at god-like power levels then keep playing until you get bored. You win the game by having fun, not by hitting a certain level.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

OD&D and 1E AD&D were unlimited (in fact there is a 1E adventure that's for levels 18-100), but there was a point of diminishing returns where it took a lot of XP for little gain. BECMI went to level 36, but also had the option for playing as Immortals. 2E IIRC was also unlimited, but I believe gave you nothing but HP after level 20, so very few players ever wanted to do so.

In 2nd edition, you got HP, decreased THAC0, and a bunch of extra spell slots up to level 30 (per Complete Wizard's Handbook). If using the DarkSun DragonKings supplement, warriors would also attract huge armies of followers, and spellcasters with the proper psionic prerequisites would gradually turn into dragons/avangions/elementals/spirits of the land. I don't remember offhand what thieves got but I THINK it might have been spellcasting, and I'm relatively certain they kept progressing in their thief skills as well.

I've never seen 2nd edition rules for advancement past level 30.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Once I got past junior high school, and the Monty Hall phase that my group of friends went through, I never really enjoyed playing high levels. My favorite character from that era was a Half-Elf Ranger that I retired at 14th level.

So, for myself and those that I tend to play with the real question is "Why bother even playing all the way to 20th, let alone going beyond that?". Anything past 12th level just seems like overkill to me.

However, the game is what you make of it. So, if you and your group have fun playing at god-like power levels then keep playing until you get bored. You win the game by having fun, not by hitting a certain level.

The interesting thing about 5E is that 20th level power levels are anything but god-like. A 5E 20th level wizard is kind of sort of approximately on par with a 9th-11th level AD&D wizard in terms of the things he can accomplish.

The fact that 5E campaigns still peter out before hitting 20th is one of the things that makes me suspect it isn't about power level at all, per se--it's about DMs who haven't prepared for what a level 20 campaign would or should look like. What does D&D become when players cease to pursue XP? I'm not sure, but I think it starts looking more like a high-points GURPS game. Less emphasis on attrition and "encounters per day" and all that nonsense; more emphasis on important NPCs and what they are doing, and what the players are doing about it.

 

[Shiroiken]

The percentage of campaigns that even get to 20 is minuscule. This may be something of a balancing mechanic for people crafting 20th-level "builds", but its relevance in campaign play is slight.

Agreed. I just finished my nearly 2 year campaign at level 18 (assuming the leveled for the end of the final adventure), and it still felt a bit long. The game doesn't fall apart as badly as prior editions, but I think most play will still take place between levels 3-12. They are less the "sweet spot" of prior editions because of balance, but because after the time it takes to reach level 12 most campaigns/stories have reached their logical conclusion.

 

[jgsugden]

Something to consider for adventuring beyond 20: The PCs are some of the most powerful entities in existence. They should not face many enemies that pose a large risk to their lives. If they do, you diminish how powerful they are. They're Supermen. And like Superman, the way to challenge them is not by threatening their lives, it is by threatening the things they care about. Threats to their loved ones, their kingdom, their faith... these all the PCs to be stronger than others, but still face challenges.

 

[Tony Vargas]

5e has a very definite 'sweet spot' where it holds together best. Low levels serve as a sort of right of passage, and to establish a baseline for heroes to exceed. And, the exp progression keeps the lowest levels mercifully brief.
Similarly, high levels serve more of a purpose in giving an idea what historical and dues ex machina npcs are like, and painting a picture of the classes with flavorful capstone abilities.
Exp progression slows down through the sweet spot, keeping the bulk of a campaign there.

 

[Azurewraith]

Something to consider for adventuring beyond 20: The PCs are some of the most powerful entities in existence. They should not face many enemies that pose a large risk to their lives. If they do, you diminish how powerful they are. They're Supermen. And like Superman, the way to challenge them is not by threatening their lives, it is by threatening the things they care about. Threats to their loved ones, their kingdom, their faith... these all the PCs to be stronger than others, but still face challenges.

This is why all my PCS appear from no where with nothing but a pack, armour and weapons.

 

[S'mon]

Something to consider for adventuring beyond 20: The PCs are some of the most powerful entities in existence. They should not face many enemies that pose a large risk to their lives. If they do, you diminish how powerful they are. They're Supermen. And like Superman, the way to challenge them is not by threatening their lives, it is by threatening the things they care about. Threats to their loved ones, their kingdom, their faith... these all the PCs to be stronger than others, but still face challenges.

It is up to GM worldbuilding whether this is true though. You could certainly have a world with lots of cr 21-30 entities.

 

[Charles Rampant]

It's hard to add that many compelling threats at the upper end without raising questions about the lower. MMOs have this problem in spades; to avoid high level players burning towns to the ground, the guards are all level 100, which rather seems to undermine the concept of the players being heroes when they're level 10, and would be killed in one attack by those guards.

5e allows you to move onto fighting mostly planar enemies in the teens - Demons, Devils, Illithids, Githyanki, Slaad, and Giants are the Monster Manual entries that make sense both as high level opponents and as opponents that come in groups. You can't keep fighting Dragons, and fighting more than one dragon at once quickly drains them of any majesty. These groups also tend to have obvious minions/pets and leaders, to add variety. (It's easy to observe Goblinoids as the level 1-5 equivalent, and Drow as level 4-9 equivalent, for example.)

So you can have high level threats, but in general I think you cannot have those same high level threats on the prime material plane. Otherwise they'd logically have conquered the world already; after all, anything that requires level 18+ characters is usually invincible to normal humans and Orcs and whatnot. If you have to permanently leave the main setting of your game, it begs the question of why bother continuing the campaign at all, rather than restarting with a group that actually exists on the same level as your NPCs.