D&D 5E Why stop at Level 20?

[S'mon]

It just doesn't make a lot of sense when viewed from the perspective of level 16 characters. Suddenly it's now full of weaklings, and the only real threats are either vanishingly rare, or live in Hell, where you could arguably just let them be.

I would disagree, giants are tribal creatures and a warband of a couple dozen stone, frost or fire giants can easily threaten level 16 PCs, who IME probably only have ACs in the 20-24 range. AC 25 is pretty maxed-out defence since +3 armour & shield are Legendary & vanishingly rare. Stone & Frost giants throwing rocks at +9 hit AC 25
on a 16 for 25 damage. In the open where they can focus fire they can take down most PCs in 1
round: 24 attacks, average 6 hits & 150 damage even with no crits. A Raging Barb-16 can shrug
that off but a lot of PCs will be pancaked.

 

[S'mon]

Are epic boons and the associated ability cap removals not working for you?

I don't like the ability cap removal suggestion in the DMG, it hurts Bounded Accuracy and makes capstone level 20 abilities that raise attribute caps (Barbarian 20 > STR 24 CON 24) pointless. Epic Boons are great though.

In my Wilderlands game Hakeem the Barb-19 is closing on 20th level. It's a no-Feats game; I'm planning to still give out XP that can be used for attribute increases (50,000 XP per ASI), plus ad hoc Epic Boons at a similar rate, but tied to specific achievements.

I guess once a PC has all 20s in Attributes it'd be time to either lift the cap or start using
Feats, but that'd take years.

BTW I am currently running Hakeem Barb-19 and some level 8-9 PCs in a very slightly adjusted version of "Forge of Fury" - Bounded Accuracy FTW.

 

[Li Shenron]

Why is there an assumed stopping place of level 20 in 5e?

- Does the math break?

- Nobody plays that long?

- Was it lesson learned from 4e?

- Casters' spell progressions?

I'm sure there are very concrete reasons WOTC went with level 20. I just wonder what they were. I'm genuinely curious.

All those are good reasons...

Also it can be very different to design a fixed range of levels (1-20) VS an open-ended sequence of levels. In the first case, you can design single character abilities meant to be taken at a specific level, and you can set non-linear progressions; in the latter case progressions need to be defined by linear formulas, and single special abilities (such as "epic boons") can at best have a minimum level, which however will most likely be just 20th. Being a neverending increase in power, epic levels are designed more "blindly", and cannot be playtested thoroughly.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Most modern fantasy games that I see actually run for just 10 levels, and not 20, and they work great for the majority of games. If anything, I'm going to say that 20 levels is overkill, and we could have had a game that compacted down to 10 levels instead of 20.

...like ...13th... Age...

(I'm going to have to register a 13A shill, at the rate it keeps coming up.)

The problem with 20th level is that it is hard to compensate for PC magic items. They make the game very swingy. A DM can handle that in his world craft but published modules have a hard time of it.

The DM can also leverage items to address problems that crop up at very high level. If one PC gets overshadowed in power or sidelined in specific circumstances, drop an item (if necessary, that only he can use), which gives him the right kind of boost.

 

[Mephista]

...like ...13th... Age...

(I'm going to have to register a 13A shill, at the rate it keeps coming up.)

Hey, you're the one who brought it up, not me! *hides*

I was actually thinking primarily of pugmire and ryuutama, but that fits too, sure.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Something to consider for adventuring beyond 20: The PCs are some of the most powerful entities in existence. They should not face many enemies that pose a large risk to their lives. If they do, you diminish how powerful they are. They're Supermen. And like Superman, the way to challenge them is not by threatening their lives, it is by threatening the things they care about. Threats to their loved ones, their kingdom, their faith... these all the PCs to be stronger than others, but still face challenges.

There is truth to this statement but it needs to be moderated. 20th level PCs in 5e are still very much mortal. 'Normal' ACs in the mid twenties for fighters and less for everyone else. HP topping out in the realm of around 200hp or so. Saves around +12 or so for proficient ones and much less for non-proficient. Challenging foes can put out a lot of damage and generate high DC saves, too. I agree the stakes need to be high for good high-level play. But Supermen intimates a level of invulnerabilty that 5e does not provide.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

...

5e allows you to move onto fighting mostly planar enemies in the teens - Demons, Devils, Illithids, Githyanki, Slaad, and Giants are the Monster Manual entries that make sense both as high level opponents and as opponents that come in groups. You can't keep fighting Dragons, and fighting more than one dragon at once quickly drains them of any majesty. These groups also tend to have obvious minions/pets and leaders, to add variety. (It's easy to observe Goblinoids as the level 1-5 equivalent, and Drow as level 4-9 equivalent, for example.)

So you can have high level threats, but in general I think you cannot have those same high level threats on the prime material plane. Otherwise they'd logically have conquered the world already; after all, anything that requires level 18+ characters is usually invincible to normal humans and Orcs and whatnot. If you have to permanently leave the main setting of your game, it begs the question of why bother continuing the campaign at all, rather than restarting with a group that actually exists on the same level as your NPCs.

As a DM high-level play makes you look past the MM for your challenging opponents. Yes, you certainly draw from it, but you're now in the area of creating custom foes - lich arch mages, mighty barbarian warlords, scheming rogue bosses and their inner circle retinues - to challenge your players. The other avenue of challenge is to use the bounded-accuracy route to 'swarm' your group with large numbers of lower-CR attackers, which can be fun but has the significant possibility of turning into a drawn-out, not-challenging slog. Finding a balance is necessary.

 

[Miladoon]

How strong would a 25th level character be if their class progression was broken up into 3 or 4 classes?

 

[MPA2000]

BECMI went to level 36 and even beyond; they had rules for advancing as gods (called Immortals) past that point.

The common refrain from publishers is that research shows levels 1-20 being where most players have the most fun.

Can I just say something? Players have fun where they are challenged and aren't limited by the imagination or desires of the DM. Most DMs are intimidated by high level characters, and in the case of Immortals, terrified. They don't want to look inept or incompetent having put forth challenges, only to see the characters easily overcome them or having looked foolish from the attempt.

It's called Dungeons and Dragons, but Dungeons can only go so deep and Dragons can only be so tough, until they become something of an annoyance as opposed to any real challenge.

That leads DMs changing the rules to make it harder. Doubling monster's HP, increasing the frequencies or even adding strange and bizarre powers and defences to existing powers.

And when all of that fails, just simply say, "Oh you find your spells no longer work" and that 30th level Wizard becomes zombie food.

I personally think high level PC's and Immortals have a place in adventuring, if DM's think outside the box. Going to other planes of existence to deal with some ancient evil attempting to open a portal to the Prime. Go to one of the vast Galaxies to be involved in an interstellar rebellion against an extremely powerful Empire that rules dozens of worlds. Perhaps uncovering the machinations of one or more evil Immortals or Fiends.

The possibilities are endless.

 

[77IM]

Why stop at 20? Because by 20th level, all the game effects are available. Your spells can do anything, your enemies can be anything, etc.

Quantitatively, you could play beyond 20, but it would just be the same old stuff, but with bigger numbers. Qualitatively, there's just not enough new stuff left to introduce at level 21+ to keep the game interesting.

...Unless you pivot so hard that the game is no longer recognizable as D&D. Playing as gods, creating your own Prime Material Plane, pitting worshipers against one another... that sounds totally awesome to me, but I don't think my Wednesday night hack+slash group would really go for it.