D&D 5E Why stop at Level 20?

[delericho]

In 2e I can't remember if there were rules for going past level 20.

2nd Ed had a couple of variants - Dark Sun had some rules in the "Dragon Kings" hardcover, and near the end of the edition the "DM's Option" book "High Level Campaigns" had, um, something. I'm having a hard time remembering exactly what, though.

 

[Maxperson]

2nd Ed had a couple of variants - Dark Sun had some rules in the "Dragon Kings" hardcover, and near the end of the edition the "DM's Option" book "High Level Campaigns" had, um, something. I'm having a hard time remembering exactly what, though.

Okay, thanks! So levels above 20 were in 4 of the 5 editions.

 

[delericho]

Okay, thanks! So levels above 20 were in 4 of the 5 editions.

And don't forget BECMI, which went to level 36 (and then had Immortals rules for beyond level 36).

B/X of course only went to level 14. I think there were plans for a Companion set, that would have taken it beyond level 20, but it was superseded by BECMI before they got to that point.

And I think someone mentioned above-20 play in OD&D.

 

[jasper]

Personally I think well should stop at LEVEL 9,000! Granted I will need 3 gallons of regular size d6s on a level 40 fireball but it will be worth it.

 

[jgsugden]

I haven't played high level games yet but I see a lot of monsters with CR's over 20. Do characters plough through these as easily as you suggest?

That is a long discussion, but the short version:

In optimized parties: Often, yes. The difference between optimized and non-optimized at 20th level can be extreme. The most powerful optimized parties can cruise through a lot of CRs up to 26.

However, my point, from a year ago, was apparently not clear - It isn't that you can't challenge a group of PCs lives in every encounter at 20th level. It is that you shouldn't. They're the greatest of epic heroes. If every moment is a life and death struggle, they do not feel that way. Instead, make them feel like the heroes of legend by giving them challenges that don't threaten their lives, but threaten the lives of those that believe in them - at least most of the time. There should still be encounters that challenge their lives at times, but most encounters should present other types of challenges. It is part of the evolution of the game and the evolution of the stories you tell... D&D is an RPG - a role playing game. Characters play a role in a story. 20th level characters are at the end of their third trilogy of novels as PCs - they've earned their stripes and you're about to retire them and let a new generation of heroes rise in their place.... They need to feel like the pinnacle of the game - they've earned it.

 

[Oofta]

That is a long discussion, but the short version:

In optimized parties: Often, yes. The difference between optimized and non-optimized at 20th level can be extreme. The most powerful optimized parties can cruise through a lot of CRs up to 26.

However, my point, from a year ago, was apparently not clear - It isn't that you can't challenge a group of PCs lives in every encounter at 20th level. It is that you shouldn't. They're the greatest of epic heroes. If every moment is a life and death struggle, they do not feel that way. Instead, make them feel like the heroes of legend by giving them challenges that don't threaten their lives, but threaten the lives of those that believe in them - at least most of the time. There should still be encounters that challenge their lives at times, but most encounters should present other types of challenges. It is part of the evolution of the game and the evolution of the stories you tell... D&D is an RPG - a role playing game. Characters play a role in a story. 20th level characters are at the end of their third trilogy of novels as PCs - they've earned their stripes and you're about to retire them and let a new generation of heroes rise in their place.... They need to feel like the pinnacle of the game - they've earned it.

I think that's somewhat campaign dependent. In campaigns where even gods can die, it makes that PCs could also die.

Of course threatening PCs with threats other than imminent death is always a good option.

 

[jgsugden]

I think that's somewhat campaign dependent. In campaigns where even gods can die, it makes that PCs could also die.

To an extent, yes. If the PCs are going to continue to adventure for 200 more hours at 20th level, that is different than if they are going to do a 5 to 15 encounters at 20th level and retire. However, the issue I'm addressing would not be different in a campaign where the Gods could die...

Why? Because it isn't about where the Gods fit in the story, it is about where the PCs fit. There are different types of stories you tell at different levels. Fighting goblins in a cave at level 1, is different than fighting off hill giants attacking a city at 7th, or traveling to the Abyss to fight demons at 13.... Or being amongst the greatest champions of legend at 20. They need to feel different for the game to evolve.

If Gods can die in your campaign, and the PCs are fighting the God killers - those are the few exception to the general rule combats I mentioned. That are the big fights. The key moments. If every encounter the PCs have is against something that can kill a God - well, your world likely won't have many Gods.

Of course threatening PCs with threats other than imminent death is always a good option.

It is essential - people often do not understand that this is a fundamental assumption in the DMG encounter construction guidelines. Why have easy encounters? Because easy references the challenge to the PCs survivability. It is a resource management tool aimed at assisting DMs to determine how long resources will last. It does not reference how hard it might be to stop the enemy from reaching their objective. One kobold cutting one rope can change the world - and if that kobold is secured the right way, it can be a challenge for even high level PCs to stop it before it cuts that rope.

You need to rely upon that mentality more at high levels if you want the PCs to feel like epic heroes. If you don't, and every battle is a grind for survival, they do not feel like epic heroes. They feel like cogs in a greater game - which is something they should leave behind before they are retired as the greatest heroes of legend.

 

[Yunru]

20? That's a weird way to write Eleven.

 

[Retreater]

... Because 5th edition doesn't actually support play beyond around 10th level. (And is barely functional from 1-10 to be honest.)

 

[Wiseblood]

The possibilities are endless.

Go to other dimensions and fight gods or demons sounds pretty limited to me.