D&D 5E Mearls on other settings

[Zardnaar]

I get WotC wants to "take it slow" but dammit a toe in water conversion for some of the races, major monsters, and such for the major worlds would be nice. Official "we visit this world in X sup or Y AP" is great for 5+ years down the road, but a few of us just want official warforged stats!

That said, I have a personal theory that when WotC does visit other worlds, you're going to see two design philosophies going forward.

* Each world is going to have a "hook" that can be described in a sentence; "Eberron is pulp/noir exploration and magitech", "Dragonlance is chivalric knights and wizards vs. evil dragons", "Greyhawk is sword-and-sorcery adventure in a morally gray world", etc. Each world will present a clear "theme" or "reason to exist" beyond "Its not Faerun."

* The world will, to the best of their ability, try to retain as much of the Player's Handbook "default" as possible. That is, alternate rules will be played down and the majority of "additions" will end up being races (kender, mul, shifter), subclasses (wizard of high sorcery, gladiator) or backgrounds ("dragonmarked heir, Templar). I also expect few subtractive rules in an attempt to keep the "core" as true as possible (All halflings in Dragonlance use the kender subrace...) so expect dragonborn on Oerth, tieflings on Krynn, and Clerics on Athas.

My theories are mostly based around how Ravenloft was handled in Curse of Strahd; they could have opted for a number of Ravenloft-era rules (spell changes, fear/horror/madness, Power checks) but instead did the minimum (a few cosmetic spell changes beyond the planar travel ban and Resurrection). Hell, they didn't even to re-invent some of them; Fear and Horror are in the 5e DMG! They did it so as to make the game work without much additional info, and I feel they're going to try to do the same with other settings. So I wager that 5e Dragonlance is going to figure out some way of making every PHB class available, 5e Planescape is going to treat the factions like the AL factions, etc.

I know the purists will shriek in rage and horror, but I think when they do move beyond Faerun (and a toe-dip in Ravenloft) that it will error more towards "D&D, with added flavor" rather than "radical rebuild/variant of the D&D system".

Erm Athas had Clerics it was the lame 4E conversion that removed them. They were quite important in the original setting.

 

[SkidAce]

Depends who you ask, but I've always considered it a recipe book for the DM, not a list of options that are always available.

As do I.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm probably in the minority in thinking this is a GOOD thing. I remember in the Halcyon days of 2e where every setting had its own variant on a class or race, each with mechanical alterations. For example, a Cleric (not even specialty priests, but BOG STANDARD CLERIC) got different domains in the PHB, Ravenloft, and Forgotten Realms. Athas practically had its own version of the Player's Handbook. The settings usually referenced the PHB, but more than a few of them tended to supersede it in more than just flavor.

Personally, the D&D settings should still reflect D&D first, and then their particular genre or flavor (gothic horror, sword-n-sorcery, pulp action, sword-n-sandal) second. They shouldn't require much more mechanical support than what the SCAG provided (a few races or racial variants, a new class and/or some subclasses, and a few backgrounds, feats, or spells). If the DM wants to emulate the genre further, he can start restricting classes and using DMG variant rules.

That is a good thing, makes the campaign worlds different.

 

[Shasarak]

I must have missed where the Forgotten Realms has mists, Vistani, and an immortal vampire lord ruling it.

Vampires and Gypsy's are a dime a dozen especially the Vistani who are supposed to travel everywhere and honestly what are the Mists other then a very thinly disguised DM railroad? I mean it was probably a brilliant idea in the 80's.

But if mechanics are what sets two settings apart, then does that mean Grayhawk is the same as the Forgotten Realms?

What has Greyhawk got that Forgotten Realms has not already taken? Even the NPCs of Greyhawk are fair game to be stolen.

 

[Remathilis]

I think it was worse for not having some element of fear/horror/Powers checks. They needn't have been the same as the old versions, or nearly as ubiquitous. I think it was worse for not having some limits on certain kinds of spells, though again, they could be a lot lighter than what came before.

Action Points? A good thing, if not essential. Different plusses in Planescape? Excess baggage.

But these are fairly minor, fiddly issues. I'm talking, in general, about much bigger ones, like not having "standard" clerics in Dark Sun, not having the unique planar setup in Eberron. I hated the changes to Strahd's backstory in CoS, and even more so the attempt to define the Dark Powers. (These aren't changes from the core, but they're examples of changes that drastically changed the feel of the setting and its major players. And they're probably why I didn't notice as many of the minor mechanical changes so much.)

We can absolutely quibble and negotiate about what level of mechanical difference is necessary, or which changes are appropriate vs. not. (I have no problem with dragonborn in Dark Sun, for instance, because they fit the mood/feel/aesthetic of Dark Sun. Tieflings, however, do not, because of Athas's planar isolation, so I wouldn't be okay with putting them in.)

But some changes from the core--additions, alterations, and omissions--are absolutely necessary. We can talk about specifics, but I will never budge on that as a general rule.

I think we're at the point where we're negotiating severity vs necessity.

Let me show you what I'm driving at.

GOOD: Clerics in Dark Sun do not worship the Gods, but instead draw power from the elemental planes. They must select the Elemental Domain (provided below). They're starting gear is changed to the following [...].
BAD: Players cannot select the Cleric class.

GOOD: On Krynn, Paladins often serve one of the many knighthoods that war across the country. Most take the Oath of Solomnia or Oath of Tahkisis subclasses, though some still choose Oaths of Devotion or Vengeance.
BAD: Paladins in Krynn have been replaced with the Knight Class.

GOOD: Tieflings on Eberron are only found in small groups in the Demon Wastes and mixed into urban settings like Sharn. Some are born around manifestation zones when the plane of Fieria is conterminous.
BAD: Tieflings are not found on Eberron.

... and so on and so forth.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think we're at the point where we're negotiating severity vs necessity.

Let me show you what I'm driving at.

GOOD: Clerics in Dark Sun do not worship the Gods, but instead draw power from the elemental planes. They must select the Elemental Domain (provided below). They're starting gear is changed to the following [...].
BAD: Players cannot select the Cleric class.

GOOD: On Krynn, Paladins often serve one of the many knighthoods that war across the country. Most take the Oath of Solomnia or Oath of Tahkisis subclasses, though some still choose Oaths of Devotion or Vengeance.
BAD: Paladins in Krynn have been replaced with the Knight Class.

GOOD: Tieflings on Eberron are only found in small groups in the Demon Wastes and mixed into urban settings like Sharn. Some are born around manifestation zones when the plane of Fieria is conterminous.
BAD: Tieflings are not found on Eberron.

... and so on and so forth.

Krynn had Paladins and Eberron had Tieflings IIRC.

Letting any race on any world is silly. Krynn has no Half Orcs, Athas has no Gnomes, Half Orcs.

Some things should not exist on some worlds, others can exist but not a PC races. For example warforged should not be put on Athas perhaps as a NPC race however assuming they are let overs from the Cleansing Wars and made out of wood and crystal. This is because they are living constructs and do not need to sleep, eat, drink or breathe and it kind of defeats the basic idea of Darksun being about survival. You could walk from Balic to Raam without having to drink any water, be immune to the effects of the sun an you could even ignore the Sea of Silt's effects as you do not breathe.

Dragonborn also should not exist on Athas as there are no chromatic Dragons. Sure you could create another species of them but then once again you may as well create the Dray if you are doing that. The Dray should not be a PC race as Dragons are uber rare on Darksun and Dragonmen defeat that idea along with the fact that Dregoth is not known to the world at large. As far as the PCs know there is 1 Dragon on Athas (The Dragon) and even with a generous reading of 2E material using DM knowledge there are a grand total of 10 more Dragons (7 Sorcerer Kings in the original box, +1 more in revised box+Dregoth and the one in Black Sands).

The core races of 5E also match the TSR designers of core races in their worlds. Darksun more or less rewrote the PHB races and classes but you still had the elf/dwarf/human/halfling core.

A 5 adaption to DS would not have to rewrite the PHB as you would just add in the elemental domains and tweak some of the existing races perhaps with sidebars. Wood Elves are fast and they can be the Athasian Elf along with the hill Dwarf, stout halfling. The other sub races either do not exist or have to be discovered as they are in remote out of the way areas like Thamasku for the other Halflings.

Darksun would also function better with a limited amount of archtypes available.

Templar cleric with war domain
Clerics. Add in the 4 elemental domains (or tempest= air, fire=light, earth= nature, water= life).
Bards do not exist or are assassins with the perform skill
Gladiators are the champion
Fighters are the battlemaster
Rogues are the Thief archetype (assassin is bard)
Wizards as PHB add rules for defiling
Paladins do not exist
Warlocks do not exist
Sorcerers do not exist.
Barbarian
Druid land Druid only (limited to the desert, forest and plains)

Adding crap to the TSR worlds would be like reprinting the 4E PoL setting and removing Dragonborn and warlocks which absolutely should be there. If I play Dragonlance (I don't like DL) I would not expect the DM to let me have a half orc or come up with a somewhat plausible reason to have one (he got there via spelljamming). I would argue its part of the social contract of that world, hell some setting could have racial restrictions (Greyhawk, Mystrara). If you don't like it don't buy/play that world.

If every setting is a sandbox with everything available there is not that much point to having more than 2 or 3 worlds. Personally I would reboot each world back to the original setting and that way new players can experience the world as it was and older players can go with that timeline or use the TSR metaplot they like if they feel the need.

 

[Remathilis]

Krynn had Paladins and Eberron had Tieflings IIRC.

Letting any race on any world is silly. Krynn has no Half Orcs, Athas has no Gnomes, Half Orcs.

Some things should not exist on some worlds, others can exist but not a PC races. For example warforged should not be put on Athas perhaps as a NPC race however assuming they are let overs from the Cleansing Wars and made out of wood and crystal. This is because they are living constructs and do not need to sleep, eat, drink or breathe and it kind of defeats the basic idea of Darksun being about survival. You could walk from Balic to Raam without having to drink any water, be immune to the effects of the sun an you could even ignore the Sea of Silt's effects as you do not breathe.

Dragonborn also should not exist on Athas as there are no chromatic Dragons. Sure you could create another species of them but then once again you may as well create the Dray if you are doing that. The Dray fit into the should be NPC race as Dragons are uber rare on Darksun and Dragonmen defeat that idea along with the fact that Dregoth is not known to the world at large. As far as the PCs know there is 1 Dragon on Athas (The Dragon) and even with a generous reading of 2E material using DM knowledge there are a grand total of 10 more Dragons (7 Sorcerer Kings in the original box, +1 more in revised box+Dregoth and the one in Black Sands).

The core races of 5E also match the TSR designers of core races in their worlds. Darksun more or less rewrote the PHB races and classes but you still had the elf/dwarf/human/halfling core.

A 5 adaption to DS would not have to rewrite the PHB as you would just add in the elemental domains and tweak some of the existing races perhaps with sidebars. Wood Elves are fast and they can be the Athasian Elf along with the hill Dwarf, stout halfling. The other sub races either do not exist or have to be discovered as they are in remote out of the way areas like Thamasku for the other Halflings.

Darksun would also function better with a limited amount of archtypes available.

Templar cleric with war domain
Clerics. Add in the 4 elemental domains (or tempest= air, fire=light, earth= nature, water= life).
Bards do not exist or are assassins with the perform skill
Gladiators are the champion
Fighters are the battlemaster
Rogues are the Thief archetype (assassin is bard)
Wizards as PHB add rules for defiling
Paladins do not exist
Warlocks do not exist
Sorcerers do not exist.
Barbarian
Druid land Druid only (limited to the desert, forest and plains)

That there is exactly what I'm afraid of and why I think a Dark Sun 5e could end up a terrible idea. You took 9 races and 12 classes in the PHB and reduced them to 4 races and 6 classes. Rather than expand the game with new options and flavor, you chop it in half for sake of genre emulation. Might as well leave my PHB at home, because its verging on useless.

Rather than say "X doesn't exist", why not find it a home? Make Sorcerers defilers and Wizards preservers? IIRC 4e Dark Sun had no problem fitting tieflings and warlocks into DS, as well as giving spellcasting to the bard class. (In fact, 4e Templars are warlocks; how's that for mind-blowing?) You don't need to fit everything in there, but I think you can do better than 6 classes and 11 subclasses.

If Dark Sun cannot accommodate new material and must remove half of the PHB content for sake of "purity", then it should be chucked to the dust bin of history.

 

[Remathilis]

Depends who you ask, but I've always considered it a recipe book for the DM, not a list of options that are always available.

For an individual DM, I agree. But we're talking Official Dungeons & Dragons (TM) settings, and I hold them to a higher standard than some DM's homebrew world. Official D&D should attempt to keep as much of the PHB valid as possible. It should find ways to include as many options as possible. Let the purist DM decide if HIS Dark Sun has tieflings, WotC's job it to give me a reason why they could be there.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I think it's fine to look for places where a mechanic can find a home in a setting, as long as it's not forced to a point where it violates the theme and aesthetics of said setting.

Again, using Athas as an example... I said before that I could see adding dragonborn (as dray or related), but not tieflings. I can see allowing clerics if limited to elemental domains, but paladins--while actually easier to add, since they don't require gods, only oaths--don't really fit the aesthetic of Dark Sun. Well, maybe the Oath of Vengeance, but not the other two. I wouldn't want to see the other two shoehorned in.

No gnomes. It's already been established that they're extinct. Halflings and elves exist, but need to change mechanically from their core expression, because they're different both culturally and mechanically.

Warlocks? Maybe, but they'd also have to change. The standard pacts really don't fit Dark Sun as written, due to Athas's planar isolation. So maybe Templars, and maybe some other new pacts, but not Fiend or Great Old One.

And yes, some of those omissions are necessary, in my eyes. As I said, it's fine to look for places where the mechanics can be inserted, but it's not fine to insist that all of them find a place. Sometimes, what's not permitted is as important to the feel of a setting as what is.

IOW, I'm not a canon or history purist. I don't think that, just because something wasn't in the setting in 2E, it can't be in 5E. But I am a thematic purist. If something doesn't fit the general theme of the world as written, it must not be shoehorned in, no matter how popular or how core.

 

[Mouseferatu]

For an individual DM, I agree. But we're talking Official Dungeons & Dragons (TM) settings, and I hold them to a higher standard than some DM's homebrew world.

To me, omitting something where it contradicts the feel, theme, mood, and/or aesthetic of a setting is the higher standard. I expect official products to be willing to leave out or change core elements, in addition to adding new ones, and I consider that a sign of strong world design.