D&D 5E UA: "Greyhawk" Initiative

[The Human Target]

Thinking about it more, ranged characters are still going to have an advantage on initiative because they usually don't have as much of a reason to move vs a melee character.

 

[jrowland]

Ah, that's what I'd missed - that it was a rolling initiative rather than restarting from '1' each round.

My only worry is that after a few rounds the separations would become so great as to in effect just make it more or less cyclic again...which kinda defeats the purpose.

Lanefan

it *could*, but given that everyone is more or less rolling the same dice round to round, it should stay converged. Probably break down to "stationary archer" then "melee" then "caster". ie three bunches.

I think for the most part its true for long battles. most 5e don't last long enough to matter

 

[Mistwell]

Thinking about it more, ranged characters are still going to have an advantage on initiative because they usually don't have as much of a reason to move vs a melee character.

Which means all foes need to do attack the ranged PC, and move to cover.

I really think this is one of those rules changes that doesn't work well with white room theorizing, but only really makes sense once it's played. It changes a lot of the combat dynamic. Not all of it is easily predicted.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Another thought occurred to me today, and I tried to imagine what this thread would look like if for 40 years we had been playing with Greyhawk Initiative (called, of course, simply "Initiative") and the latest UA proposed a new, streamlined version where everybody rolled a d20, modified by Dexterity, and then used the result in every round.

It's not too hard to imagine all the ways this new, innovative system would be considered "broken". I think the outpouring of h8 would be even greater and more vociferous.

 

[HomegrownHydra]

Another thought occurred to me today, and I tried to imagine what this thread would look like if for 40 years we had been playing with Greyhawk Initiative (called, of course, simply "Initiative") and the latest UA proposed a new, streamlined version where everybody rolled a d20, modified by Dexterity, and then used the result in every round.

It's not too hard to imagine all the ways this new, innovative system would be considered "broken". I think the outpouring of h8 would be even greater and more vociferous.

If the game had been designed to utilize this UA initiative system then trying to use the cyclic system would create all sorts of problems, and it would be legitimate to point those problems out.

 

[Croesus]

If the game had been designed to utilize this UA initiative system then trying to use the cyclic system would create all sorts of problems, and it would be legitimate to point those problems out.

Exactly. 5E was clearly designed around the RAW simple initiative system. Creating a new initiative system that adds extra costs for using certain types of actions vs. others is pretty much guaranteed to cause imbalances. It would be like suddenly changing football by saying incomplete passes cost the passing team 5 yards of field position. Suddenly passing is higher risk than before.

 

[Coroc]

As long as they do not make the stupid 2ed initiative rule with weapon speed factors (which i unknowingly used and back then considered it a great way to balance daggers with two handed weapons in my foolishness) an official rule i am fine although i think as many ppl in this thread have analysed that this particular System has ist flaws and personally i prefer the simple Standard initiative System fro m5E

People think a dagger is quicker than a two handed sword AND THAT IS WRONG.

If two oponents are fighting armed with dagger vs two handed sword, the one with the two handed sword will strike first any time just because he has longer reach (and in real live propably kill the dagger wielder without getting a scratch from the dagger.

The weapon with the furthest reach usually goes first.
A ranged weapon shooting first in most cases especially with a cocked crossbow is not to unrealistic.

So please dear D&D dev Team, do not include weapon speed factors until you got yourself some understanding by watching a lot of scholagadiatora vids on YouTube.

Rather think about replacing leather and studded leather armor with something realistic like acheton buffcoat and brigandine, which have actually existed.

 

[Lanefan]

People think a dagger is quicker than a two handed sword AND THAT IS WRONG.

If two oponents are fighting armed with dagger vs two handed sword, the one with the two handed sword will strike first any time just because he has longer reach (and in real live propably kill the dagger wielder without getting a scratch from the dagger.

Unless the dagger wielder can get inside the 2-hander's guard and bring it to a quasi-grapple while stabbing away with the dagger.

Daggers, if one has enough to spare, can also be thrown - which if done while closing can provide a distraction to allow said entry.

A ranged weapon shooting first in most cases especially with a cocked crossbow is not to unrealistic.

True, for the first shot. After that you have to reload, which is fast enough with a light xbow but takes time if it's big enough to need a crank.

Rather think about replacing leather and studded leather armor with something realistic like acheton buffcoat and brigandine, which have actually existed.

Never heard of either of those - are they vaguely the same as leather and studded only with different names, or ?

Lanefan

 

[Coroc]

Unless the dagger wielder can get inside the 2-hander's guard and bring it to a quasi-grapple while stabbing away with the dagger.

Daggers, if one has enough to spare, can also be thrown - which if done while closing can provide a distraction to allow said entry.

True, for the first shot. After that you have to reload, which is fast enough with a light xbow but takes time if it's big enough to need a crank.

Never heard of either of those - are they vaguely the same as leather and studded only with different names, or ?

Lanefan

But still the two hander gets the first attack

As does the ranged guy


Leather and studded leather have never existed, they would not protect against any piercing weapon. Only exception is Cuirbulli which is French for boiled leather and is a thick breastplate very stiff made from several layers of cured leather.

But this would rather classify as medium armor.


Studded leather is a missinterpretation of historic Pictures showing People in brigandine, which are metal plates riveted to some fabric and for the better Looks the outer layer was colored sometimes but the rivets showing so it Looks like leather with studs to an uninformed modern Person.

Brigandinde is on the lower scale of medium armor and surely not light.

Light armor that did exist were padded armor = acheton which normaly was also part of chain armor as an undercoat.
It could withstand some hits and arrows on ist own, ist made from several layers of linen.

If you add some more layers and give the outer layer a nice look maybe using leather you got a buff coat.

It stops arrows and swordstrikes without a Problem. Those two i take in my games for AC11 and 12

Whereas Brigandine gets AC 13 with max Dex of 3 in my games.

 

[Lanefan]

But still the two hander gets the first attack

As does the ranged guy

Of course. But having the first attack and connecting with the first attack are two different things. In game terms, that's what the roll to hit is all about; while in real life it's also quite possible to fail to use one's advantage to advantage.

Leather and studded leather have never existed, they would not protect against any piercing weapon. Only exception is Cuirbulli which is French for boiled leather and is a thick breastplate very stiff made from several layers of cured leather.

Ah. That's what we consider leather as being - boiled (in oil?) only not multi-layers thick.

"Soft leather" a la a typical modern-day biker's jacket we count as the same as padded - AC 11 (or 9 in games where lower is better).

But, we'd probably better get back on track here...which I can somewhat accomplish by asking this: do you - or any of you - have armour-worn directly influence initiative? Or dexterity? Or speed?

Lanefan