D&D 5E Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?

Anyone else here remember F.A.T.A.L. ? Kind of makes a minor stat adjustment seem trivial. :)

(Not that I'm advocating sex based adjustments for PC's in my fantasy games. Just saying it could be a lot worse. :p )

That's very true.

F.A.T.A.L. was one of those games I'd always heard people online passingly joke about how awful it was. Then I finally got a look at it, and I immediately realized that the jesterly bashing it gets is really far tamer than it deserves (not that a quick jab at an awful game is ever intended to be a thorough criticism or review).

With that said however, "it could've been worse" is really not a good reason to overlook the "it" and its consequences. Also, Caliban, please don't take that as a jab at you. I'm not suggesting that you're saying we should shut up and live with the old D&D penalties because they could have been worse. I'm sure some group of people somewhere actually believes & espouses that, but I'm not saying you do.
 

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e) That said, I don't feel that having upper bounds for strength on the basis of gender would be sexist if the existed to reflect some gritty realistic campaign setting, such as say 17th century Europe or 16th century Japan. For such a setting though, I'd probably prefer to use some sort of character burner strategy for chargen that would in fact produce characters whose abilities were strongly linked to their gender precisely because society forced persons down particular life paths and alternatives just weren't available. Afterwards of course, the PC's lives could depart in any direction that the story led.

It depends. Are the upper bounds on strength that limit female PCs the only sex-based modifier? Because that's really a big part of what the problem was with the old D&D rule: that reality as it related to a PC's sex only applied to limit female PCs. And, frankly, if you're modeling real-world limits on one sex while not doing so with the other sex, yeah, that's sexist. Literally. It's failing to treat people equally (via failing to apply reality-modeling penalties to both sexes) on the basis of their sex.
 

That's very true.

F.A.T.A.L. was one of those games I'd always heard people online passingly joke about how awful it was. Then I finally got a look at it, and I immediately realized that the jesterly bashing it gets is really far tamer than it deserves (not that a quick jab at an awful game is ever intended to be a thorough criticism or review).

With that said however, "it could've been worse" is really not a good reason to overlook the "it" and its consequences. Also, Caliban, please don't take that as a jab at you. I'm not suggesting that you're saying we should shut up and live with the old D&D penalties because they could have been worse. I'm sure some group of people somewhere actually believes & espouses that, but I'm not saying you do.

Oh yeah. I'm just always reminded of F.A.T.A.L. when these discussions come up. It is both hilariously awful, and depressingly awful at the same time.

Hilarious because of how extremely detailed it is about the weirdest, most trivial aspects of character creation. (Roll on a chart to determine the diameter of various bodily orifices, etc.)

Depressing because of how much time an effort the creators put into it, and that it was clearly not intended as a joke. It's all the misogyny, racism (both real and fantasy), and misanthropy collected and tabulated, then wrapped in a fantasy game.

People are weird, and I really don't understand them. But I get less angry and frustrated at the world (and at individuals) if I try to remember "it can always be worse". Sometimes comically so.

Not saying the current level of crap (defined however you wish) should be accepted, just trying to keep it in perspective.
 

It depends. Are the upper bounds on strength that limit female PCs the only sex-based modifier?

You are heavily focused on implementation which is missing the forest for the trees. But let me make this very clear for you what I'm saying. Under the proposed chargen system, there would be upper bounds on virtually every martial related attribute, whether strength, speed, weapon skill, tactical acumen, martial leadership, etc. If it would be related to the conduct of combat, battle, or war, female characters created under the system would have lower bounds than male characters created under the system.

Clear?

And, frankly, if you're modeling real-world limits on one sex while not doing so with the other sex, yeah, that's sexist.

I suppose in the same system there would be limits to a man's knowledge of midwifery, fan language, female manners, flower arranging, and so forth compared to female characters, as the life paths that maximized those skills would simply not be available to a man. Although I should say, almost by definition, in the society we would be modeling fewer life paths would be available to a female than a man (though some might be surprising) so there would not be some sort of 'equal trade'. What we are modeling here is the real life (or fantasy life as the case maybe, as all games are fiction, I don't see a big distinction) limits imposed by having a society that very much does treat women as being different than men and so imposes very different limits on the opportunities that are available to them.

Literally. It's failing to treat people equally (via failing to apply reality-modeling penalties to both sexes) on the basis of their sex.

Well ok, if that is where you are going to take your stand, I find your argument juvenile.

It fails to treat people equally because in reality they seldom have been. Indeed, if by equal you mean 'equal in ability', and if you do mean that then you are really messed up, then in reality people are not equal in ability, and there are real differences between the sexes. If you are uncomfortable with that, then I'm not sure how you can be comfortable around real people. Does your comfort with people require extending this bubble of fantasy around them? Is your generosity, compassion and sense of fairness toward people dependent on perceiving them according to this literal fantasy that they are equal in ability? Do you value people only in so much that your bubble about the equality of ability doesn't get burst? Do you require life to be fair before you are able to process it?

I simply don't understand your definition of 'sexism'. It seems to require the person who holds it to be delusional. Moreover, even among people who agree that limitations on an RPG character on the basis of sex are inherently sexist, I think you'll find that there are many who don't agree that applying "reality-modeling penalties to both characters" (whatever those would be) would make it less sexist.

Treating people equally means treating people as being equal in dignity and worth. It does not mean treating them as equal in experience, form, or ability. To treat people who are different - and make no mistake we are all different - as if they are the same is to not acknowledge their personhood and their identity, and is not compassionate, considerate, or very practical. And besides which, you are conflating "how we model something" how we "behaving toward a person". It's not all true that acknowledging the reality of gender segregated society of 16th century Japan, and the limited roles available to women within it, is the same as treating a persons as having unequal worth and your conflation of the two is either very sloppy thinking or actual maliciousness.
 
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It depends. Are the upper bounds on strength that limit female PCs the only sex-based modifier? Because that's really a big part of what the problem was with the old D&D rule: that reality as it related to a PC's sex only applied to limit female PCs. And, frankly, if you're modeling real-world limits on one sex while not doing so with the other sex, yeah, that's sexist. Literally. It's failing to treat people equally (via failing to apply reality-modeling penalties to both sexes) on the basis of their sex.
It's a tricky situation, because the real-world limits on the male sex are harder to model and/or not particularly relevant to the sorts of activities characters tend to pursue in an adventure game. Greater caloric requirements? Somewhat lower life expectancy? They don't really balance the equation on a character sheet, for precisely the same reason they didn't balance the equation in these real-life settings we're talking about.

So my stance for gritty realistic campaign settings remains: just don't go there. So there's a female PC with 18 Str. So what? There aren't any NPCs like her, and she gets the Wonder Woman treatment (go see that movie if you haven't, people), but she's a PC. She's supposed to be exceptional. This one is just even more exceptional than usual. Yeah, there may be some specific circumstances where the presence of a woman is downright implausible: "You are all WWII submariners." In that case I'd simply strongly advise that the players play male characters. No need to mess with the ability score rules, just talk it over and work out a party composition that makes sense. Because even then, if somebody wanted to play some sort of Polly Oliver situation, I'd roll with it. (More than one Polly Oliver might strain credibility, though -- and besides, Pratchett already did it.)
 

If you reorganize the abilities into:
• Athletics (quick and sporty)
• Size (big and tough)
• Perception (sensorial and surgical)
• Intelligence (knowledgeable and intuitive)
• Charm (social and willful)

Then you can say men tend toward slightly bigger, ≈ Size, and women tend toward slightly more attentive to senses and manually dexterous, ≈ Perception.

But both are about equally Athletic and physically competent.
 

If you reorganize the abilities into:
• Athletics (quick and sporty)
• Size (big and tough)
• Perception (sensorial and surgical)
• Intelligence (knowledgeable and intuitive)
• Charm (social and willful)

Then you can say men tend toward slightly bigger, ≈ Size, and women tend toward slightly more attentive to senses and manually dexterous, ≈ Perception.

But both are about equally Athletic and physically competent.

I don't get the reasoning for the dex thing. Care to explain?
 


It depends. Are the upper bounds on strength that limit female PCs the only sex-based modifier? Because that's really a big part of what the problem was with the old D&D rule: that reality as it related to a PC's sex only applied to limit female PCs. And, frankly, if you're modeling real-world limits on one sex while not doing so with the other sex, yeah, that's sexist. Literally. It's failing to treat people equally (via failing to apply reality-modeling penalties to both sexes) on the basis of their sex.
There's not enough information available to determine that the rule only existed to limit female PCs. Even if it was the only such limit in the game, and it only applied to female characters, it could easily have been added to the game out of a sense of verisimilitude.

The underlying problem is that Strength is the only ability score which represents a real-world trait that is both observable and quantifiable. We can come up with dozens of tests to measure how strong someone is, and their results may trend a certain way, but the concepts of Dexterity and Wisdom are much more nebulous. It's not necessarily that they're failing to apply a reality-based model equally, as much as that's the only part of the model that they could understand and agree upon. If you wanted to add as many bonuses and penalties as we could scientifically justify, then we don't have enough meaningful data to determine what any of those should be.
 

There's not enough information available to determine that the rule only existed to limit female PCs. Even if it was the only such limit in the game, and it only applied to female characters, it could easily have been added to the game out of a sense of verisimilitude.

I'm not sure "They might have thought that limiting female PCs felt true to life" is a particularly robust defense.

The underlying problem is that Strength is the only ability score which represents a real-world trait that is both observable and quantifiable

While I'd love to hear about the scientific studies Gygax, et al, referenced when crafting the 1e rules, I'd prefer to hear about this real-world metric that measures a person's "Strength."
 

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