D&D 5E Are solo monsters weaker in 5e?

[Tony Vargas]

I don't think there are any solo creatures in 5e

Under BA any creature of CR 1 or higher could constitute a "solo" encounter for a same or lower-level party. But, 'Legendary' creatures seem actually designed to do so a bit better...

Casually browsing the MM3, I can't find any discussion around this. Care to give an example, highlighting the difference between "boosted defenses" and "action preservation"?

It's no big mystery, early solos & elites got an additional increase to a defense or two, over and above the range their level and role would indicate - It made over-level encounters with them problematic, and was one of the reasons the two notorious KotSf broken encounters were so broken. MM3 designs dropped that. 'Action preservation's what the community called the designs that countered lock-down strategies (the broken examples of which had already been 'updated') - it could take many forms.

 

[Xeviat]

Casually browsing the MM3, I can't find any discussion around this. Care to give an example, highlighting the difference between "boosted defenses" and "action preservation"?

You'll see the difference in monster design in the DMG and DMG errata, actually, not directly in the MM.


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[Xeviat]

I don't think there are any solo creatures in 5e


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There are legendary creatures of a CR chosen to be a medium, hard, or deadly encounter; that's 5E's Solos.


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[CapnZapp]

You'll see the difference in monster design in the DMG and DMG errata, actually, not directly in the MM.

Sorry it was so long ago I played 4E, and I stopped before all those changes happened, so any chance of a teensy weensy bit more specific instructions?

Do you mean the DMG used to say one thing, and then got errataed to say something else? Or are you talking about DMG2 and DMG3?

 

[CapnZapp]

There are legendary creatures of a CR chosen to be a medium, hard, or deadly encounter; that's 5E's Solos.

And to cycle back to the original question, anything less than a legendary creature of a CR chosen to be double-deadly will not come close to feeling like a Solo encounter, which brings problems of its own.

Explanation: in order to have defences (mostly, but not wholly, talking hit points here, and then save resistances) to last long enough to even register as a "solo fight" you need to pick a Legendary so many CRs above the APL that its offense will threaten to oneshot a player character, any player character. This in turn cheapens the value of being a "sturdy" party member.

In conclusion: it is very difficult to get good use out of a "boss monster" solo.

Without adding guards and followers, that is. While that works very well, it also kinda makes it not a solo encounter

 

[Tony Vargas]

Sorry it was so long ago I played 4E, and I stopped before all those changes happened

So less than 2 years, then.

Do you mean the DMG used to say one thing, and then got errataed to say something else? Or are you talking about DMG2 and DMG3?

There was no DMG3, but, yes, there was a lot of errata (though WotC cynically refused to label it as such), problems were noticed, people whinged over them, WotC pushed out an 'Update.' They're being a lot more honest about it this time: problems are noticed, people whinge over them, WotC published another AP.

And to cycle back to the original question, anything less than a legendary creature of a CR chosen to be double-deadly will not come close to feeling like a Solo encounter, which brings problems of its own.

Explanation: in order to have defences (mostly, but not wholly, talking hit points here, and then save resistances) to last long enough to even register as a "solo fight" you need to pick a Legendary so many CRs above the APL that its offense will threaten to oneshot a player character, any player character. This in turn cheapens the value of being a "sturdy" party member.

Sure. Not as bad as 3e rocket tag or anything, but it's an issue. OTOH, it's an issue that they were erring on the side of in the name of the fast-combat goal.

In conclusion: it is very difficult to get good use out of a "boss monster" solo.

Without adding guards and followers, that is. While that works very well, it also kinda makes it not a solo encounter

I can always resort to what I did back in the day - not even stat out the 'boss monsters,' just describe it, have it do scary stuff, and have it expire at a dramatically appropriate moment. Yeah, it borders on freestyle. :shrug:

 

[Xeviat]

Sorry it was so long ago I played 4E, and I stopped before all those changes happened, so any chance of a teensy weensy bit more specific instructions?

Do you mean the DMG used to say one thing, and then got errataed to say something else? Or are you talking about DMG2 and DMG3?

I don't have the errata or books on hand, but the changes included raising Brute attack bonus, raising Soldier damage bonus, removing elite and solo defense bonuses, reducing solo hp multiplier from x5 at levels 11+ to x4 always, and increasing damage from 8+(1/2 per level) to 8+level.

With the Essentials 4.1 changes, Dragons started being built with essentially two turns.


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[Uchawi]

Action economy is the biggest deterrent. To compensate you have to beef up the CR, defenses, damage, etc. At that point is becomes a game of rocket tag and who is left standing. Adding more actions a monster can perform each round, or multiple times per round, allows you to keep the base creature a little more simple. Otherwise the party simply wins by the amount of actions they can perform.

 

[CapnZapp]

Action economy is the biggest deterrent. To compensate you have to beef up the CR, defenses, damage, etc. At that point is becomes a game of rocket tag and who is left standing. Adding more actions a monster can perform each round, or multiple times per round, allows you to keep the base creature a little more simple. Otherwise the party simply wins by the amount of actions they can perform.

That is why we want the game to specifically support solo creatures (or templates)

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[dave2008]

Sorry it was so long ago I played 4E, and I stopped before all those changes happened, so any chance of a teensy weensy bit more specific instructions?

Do you mean the DMG used to say one thing, and then got errataed to say something else? Or are you talking about DMG2 and DMG3?

There were revisions to monster design in both the MM2 and the MM3 and from DMG 1 to DMG 2.

Per the DMG 2:

"Elites no longer gain additional bonuses to all defenses. Instead, follow the same rules as for standard monsters."

"The creation of solo monsters had change in three major ways.
Hit points: Multiply hit points by 4. Monsters of 11th level or higher no longer have quintuple hit points
Defenses: Solos no longer gain extra bonuses to all defenses. Use the same defenses as for standard monsters.
Better When Bloodied: This type of change isn't as straightforward. When a solo monster is bloodied, it should become more dangerous and more mobile. Add a couple of abilities from the following list to reflect this advantage."

In addition, when the MM3 came out they revised the damage suggestions so that monsters caused more damage, and brutes no longer had a lower to hit. This was only covered in an errata/update to the DMG1: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateDMG.pdf

Also, when the essentials Monster Vault came out they started giving solos specific off turn actions and methods to mitigate stun-lock. Such As:

Instinctive Slash
On an initiative count of 10 + its initiative check, the dragon can use a free action to fly up to its speed and use claw. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks. If the dragon cannot use a free action to make this attack due to a dominating or stunning effect, then that effect ends instead of the dragon making the attack.