D&D 5E Rethinking immunities & resistance

[The Crimson Binome]

Sorry Saelorn you can't have it both ways. Fire resistance and immunity only applied to devils & Fire Giants prior to 3E and it was a weak argument then. Red Dragons and Fire Elementals had no immunity to fire.

Checking my AD&D Monster Manual, red dragons are immune to fire and salamanders are impervious to all fire-based attacks. If they didn't spell out that fire elementals were also immune to fire damage, then it's only because it should have been obvious.

The concept of burning a fire elemental is ridiculous. Any game that includes such ridiculous shenanigans deserves to be mocked for doing so. If you want to add it at your own table, feel free, but know that your players will judge you negatively for it.

 

[schnee]

[video]https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=samurai+vs+viking+deadliest+warrior&view=detail&mid=CAFA1EF3B7A7EB3B35A6CAFA1EF3B7A7EB3B35A6&FORM=VIRE[/video]

Check out the utter ineffectiveness of a katana against good old chainmail. Field test with trained katana swordsman against chainmail in this video. It occurs at 9:26. I'd have better luck using a fireball against a fire elemental than a katana against chainmail and chainmail is weak armor by D&D stats. No way a katana is cutting through stone not matter what the fan boy fantasy may indicate. Swords cutting through stone or heavy metals is completely ridiculous. A katana is devastating against a monk or a wizard. Completely useless against an armored knight like a paladin or western fighter in chain or plate armor.

Oh god let's not revive the AD&D 'Weapon vs. armor class modifiers' table please, I'm begging you

I mean, it would nerf double-wielding Pole Arm Master Two Weapon Fighting Shillelagh Rangers, which is great, but that's not enough to merit going back to THAT kind of game.

 

[Sadras]

Its just not fun to severely gimp a character through out an adventure consisting of many of these creatures. For example, Ravenloft was a terrible adventure for rogues in 3E.

And yet you find it perfectly acceptable to have clerics outshine other classes in Ravenloft? Classes shine at various times during a session, adventure and campaign. There is nothing wrong with it, at least for the majority of the playerbase.

Its also the reason I never threw monsters that needed +1 or better weapons to hit against fighters who didn't have magic weapons in the pre-3E days because its just not fun to take any character completely out of an encounter without giving them any meaningful chance to do something.

There are other ways to counter that, such as half-damage versus normal weapons, the spell Magic Weapon...etc
What about Troll regeneration where one might need acid or fire?

I think you're missing out on one of the primary advantages of the party: A group of individuals with different skill sets and abilities which are able to overcome a variety of obstacles that would otherwise be difficult or even impossible for an individual adventurer.

 

[Imaculata]

Katanas are garbage swords against regular metal armor. Super sharp swords DO NOT cut through metal armor and saying its fantasy does not cut it. Its just the same as saying magical fire does not work against creatures that are immune to normal fires. If there is a limit to what spell magic can effect than the exact same limitation should apply when you enchant that same magic on to a blade.

I should point out that the way combat and armor class works in D&D has nothing to do with the hardness of armor, or with the penetrative powers of a weapon on said armor. In other words, if a samurai manages to hit a knight in plate mail with his katana, in the fiction of the game this does not mean that the katana went through the armor. What it means, is that the samurai was able to (almost) hurt the knight, despite the armor. You can give what ever narrative explanation for it that you want. Maybe the samurai found a weak spot in the armor, maybe the samurai found a spot not covered by the armor, or maybe the knight's luck is simply running out when avoiding the attacks of the samurai. Because lost hitpoints can be either literal wounds, or a more abstract representation of a hero's remaining life expectancy. Its all abstract. Not literal.

Armor class is not a literal representation of the penetrative power of weapons in D&D.

 

[schnee]

Armor class is not a literal representation of the penetrative power of weapons in D&D.

Not any more.

 

[Coroc]

That is different because the majority of the tempest cleric's abilities have nothing to do with lightning. I may be wrong but Blue Dragons are not immune to thunder damage so tempest clerics can use thunderwave and similar powers against them. I do have an issue if you planescape to the Nine Hells and cannot do anything as a fire mage. That is dumb. Same reason why rogue sneak attack immunities were removed from undead, elementals, constructs and other creatures that had blanket immunity to them in 3E. Its just not fun to severely gimp a character through out an adventure consisting of many of these creatures. For example, Ravenloft was a terrible adventure for rogues in 3E. Its also the reason I never threw monsters that needed +1 or better weapons to hit against fighters who didn't have magic weapons in the pre-3E days because its just not fun to take any character completely out of an encounter without giving them any meaningful chance to do something.

What I am trying to say is: If you are all about balance in all things all the time maybe you should play 4e rather?

5e is doing a good job on balance but still got some of the old vibe of 2e, but not in every fight can everybody contribute equally, the luck of the dice already prevent that.

I would warn a player upfront if most of the campaign would take place on the elemental plane of fire a red dragon lair or the nine hells not to specialize in fire magic, but I would still do such scenarios if I like to, and without altering the rules to ridiculous fight fire with fire equalizations.

 

[Lost Soul]

Sure, a real katana is a lousy weapon to use against real metal armor. This is fantasy, though, and a magical blade of sharpness can cut through anything. It's part of the genre, right alongside demons and fire elementals and giant dragons who live in magma. What isn't part of the genre is burning a fire elemental to death.
What kind of wizard would be so phenomenally stupid as to not know any other damaging spells? If you choose to play your spellcaster such that they can't do anything against a fire elemental, then they deserve to die for being such an utter idiot.

Read my posts. I am complaining because I am a sorcerer and our spells known list is extremely small. Stop equating arcane power = wizard. There have been other editions since 2nd dude.

 

[Lost Soul]

What I am trying to say is: If you are all about balance in all things all the time maybe you should play 4e rather?

5e is doing a good job on balance but still got some of the old vibe of 2e, but not in every fight can everybody contribute equally, the luck of the dice already prevent that.

I would warn a player upfront if most of the campaign would take place on the elemental plane of fire a red dragon lair or the nine hells not to specialize in fire magic, but I would still do such scenarios if I like to, and without altering the rules to ridiculous fight fire with fire equalizations.

5E is overbalanced towards martial characters and its getting old. Would you be happy being a martial character in a water adventure where missile weapons other than crossbows are useless and any non piercing melee weapon is heavily resisted or caused disadvantage on attack rolls? Should we have carried forward sneak attack immunities for broad ranges of monsters such as undead, golems and elementals? If you answers to these questions are a resounding yes than fine you can continue to argue with me that spell resistances and immunities should be in 5E. If not, then don't bother. Spells have been greatly nerfed in 5E in terms of both raw power and effect. They are not an old Basic or 1rst Edition feel by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Lost Soul]

I should point out that the way combat and armor class works in D&D has nothing to do with the hardness of armor, or with the penetrative powers of a weapon on said armor. In other words, if a samurai manages to hit a knight in plate mail with his katana, in the fiction of the game this does not mean that the katana went through the armor. What it means, is that the samurai was able to (almost) hurt the knight, despite the armor. You can give what ever narrative explanation for it that you want. Maybe the samurai found a weak spot in the armor, maybe the samurai found a spot not covered by the armor, or maybe the knight's luck is simply running out when avoiding the attacks of the samurai. Because lost hitpoints can be either literal wounds, or a more abstract representation of a hero's remaining life expectancy. Its all abstract. Not literal.

Armor class is not a literal representation of the penetrative power of weapons in D&D.

Umm you are wrong. Heavy armor is assumed to take the impact of weapon hits because you cannot add your dexterity to AC. The armor either absorbs the hit or doesn't unless the attack roll is so low (i.e a 1-4) that narratively it would be a clear miss. The attack roll is assumed to consist of thrusts, swings, parries, etc. and your D20 roll is the opening that your character has to inflict some damage.
Also, weapons are graded on their effectiveness in a melee situation where people are aware of each other so the damage roll incorporates effects of reach, type of weapon, weight, etc. A dagger is very dangerous against an unarmed opponent. So much so that gang battles had rules that allowed chains, baseball bats and brass knuckles but not knives because knives are inherently lethal due to puncture and bleeding wounds. If we are judging a katana strictly by its optimal ability to do damage to a typical heavily armored D&D knight then it would most likely do a measly D6 of damage to account for the fact that it really cannot penetrate heavy armor and chainmail is standard fare for 1rst level fighters, paladins and clerics of war, storms and life. The humble short sword of the Roman Legions killed far more people than a katana ever did and built an empire. Unlike a katana it could pierce chainmail.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Read my posts. I am complaining because I am a sorcerer and our spells known list is extremely small. Stop equating arcane power = wizard. There have been other editions since 2nd dude.

First of all, 4E doesn't count as an edition of D&D for the purposes of design iteration. It was intentionally designed to be as far removed from every other edition as possible, and is entirely irrelevant outside of its own context. The 5E sorcerer has more in common with the 3E wizard than either has with any 4E class.

Second of all, that is a much more coherent argument. You think that it's unfair that so many monsters are immune to fire, because you picked a weird gimmick class that only knows like twelve spells. And instead of working to fix the class so that it's less gimmicky, you want to fix every single monster in the game that would otherwise be able to bypass your gimmick.

Burning a fire elemental will always be ridiculous, and nothing you can say will ever change that. Why don't you just learn Magic Missile as one of your spells? Or learn Chill Touch as one of your cantrips? Even if you only know a handful of spells, refusing to pick a non-fire attack spell still seems suicidally foolish. I mean, yeah, the cost is higher for you than it would be for a wizard... but that's no excuse to not pay the price. Limited spell selection is the balancing factor for the class.

You don't see the barbarian player complaining that their class features are useless when they have to pick up a bow in order to fight a dragon. You still get your proficiency bonus to hit with weapon attacks, even as a sorcerer, so you should never be in a situation where you can't contribute. You just need to accept that sometimes the circumstances are working against you, and someone else gets to be the star of that encounter.

Because the alternative - burning fire elementals to death - is ridiculous.