Crossbow Expert redux

[CapnZapp]

Also needs to not say reach, but 5'.

I thought I modeled my phrasing on the benefit given by the original feat, but perhaps that quality got lost during the iterations...

 

[CapnZapp]

Further marshalling my thoughts I dislike targeting the bonus at some but not all crossbows. I feel sure I'd forget that at some point and it leads to overhead without much payoff. I feel there's an opportunity to simplify that. It's also problematic to use "within reach" as a variant of the general rule for disadvantage with a crossbow, which is "within 5'". For completeness I feel it is also worth adding "you are holding" unless the intent is enabling a quickdraw of some sort (which sounds kind of cool, but seems unneeeded).

How about something like this

Crossbow Expert
When using a crossbow with which you are proficient, your proficiency bonus is doubled for attack rolls you make with it and you can add your proficiency bonus to its damage roll. When you use the Attack action to attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to load and attack with a hand crossbow you are holding. Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on attack rolls you make with hand crossbows.

[Edited to slightly tweak text; no change to design intent]

Thank you for your insightful commentary. Let me try to justify/explain each of my decisions

I definitely do not want to include hand crossbows into the group that recieves bonuses; the ability to "dual wield" it (with a melee weapon) is cool (if not outright powerful) enough. To me, hand crossbows are completely different from regular crossbows, and I don't foresee any mix-ups. Also: very few NPCs will ever use hand crossbows, as opposed to regular ones - this feat is meant to encourage and explain why hapless NPCs favor crossbows (among other things).

[Edit: you never claim this] Conversely, it's only hand crossbows that "need" the exception to disadvantage-in-melee; two-handed crossbows (light and heavy) should remain ranged weapons - and ranged weapons should remain disadvantaged in melee in my strongly held opinion.

Furthermore, I want the full +5 damage bonus already at first level - one important use case for the feat is to enable threatening city guards and other NPCs. A static +5 is also much easier to remember than a value that is +4 for one NPC but +6 for another. It's simply an equipment bonus (the heavy crossbow's "strength" is 20 for a +5 bonus), unrelated to the wielder.

The attack bonus, on the other hand, I'm not sure what you gain by adding more than +2 at higher levels. A static bonus does remain equally desirable at any level; I simply don't see why high-level adventurers need a higher bonus. A crossbow isn't a sniper's weapon, it's just a weapon useful in the hands of untrained rabble. I'd much rather reserve any proficiency based feats for master archers. Granting a level 20 rogue a +6 bonus to crossbow attacks is outright broken; that's like a high-level magic weapon right there.

If you ask me why heavy crossbows get the damage bonus but not light crossbows, that's a much more open issue. I guess my answer at the mo' is simply to create a larger difference between a "vanilla" (light) crossbow and a heavy one; hopefully turning NPCs equipped with heavy crossbows into something that give players pause, at least briefly and even if only at low levels

The "within reach" phrasing I need to look at. Thanks!

 

[CapnZapp]

Additionally, do you intend dual hand crossbows to get that immunity? For me it makes most sense when a melee weapon is in the other hand. It's not OP either way.

Sorry I must have missed this particular question. Yes, I'm not about to distinguish between hand crossbows held with and without other items. That just opens a can of worms: should casters be treated differently when holding a dagger (a weapon) as their implement as opposed to a tome or orb (not a weapon)?

(And my answer is "please no" )

Besides, even while you CAN wield dual hand crossbows, you will not want to once you have Extra Attack, since you can only attack once with your main-hand hand crossbow (the loading keyword remains in effect).

If a Rogue player has seen John Woo movies lately, I am not going to take away her dual hand crossbow fantasy from her

Remember this isn't much of a power choice for a Rogue (choosing my Crossbow Expert feat for the ability to dual wield hand crossbows, I mean). You'd basically pay a whole feat just for the ability to dual wield at 30 ft range. (If hand crossbows had the range of shortbows or more, it'd be a whole nother story). But 30 ft is no problem, since most NPC melee bruiser monsters can close that distance. Meaning that a ranged character isn't truly ranged with a range that short. To me, the essential quality of a "ranged character" is the ability to shoot at monsters without them being able to close to melee in return. Forcing monsters to play the game of "ranged combat" is often (not always; often) a decisively winning strategy, and one I'm keen to keep a very short leash on.

Notice how my version of Sharpshooter adds +30 ft range to the Hand Crossbow for a total of 60 ft, in contrast to the PHB version which turns hand crossbows into 120 ft weapons. (Talking about my Feat Redux II thread now) A considerable if not decisive change, if I may say so myself...

 

[CapnZapp]

I like it a lot. Goodbye crossbow machinegun.

Thank you.

Yes, sadly the Sage was completely mistaken when he claimed the CE feat does not turn the crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon.

A "crossbow machinegun" is precisely what the raw rules lead to: characters running around with a single hand crossbow shooting up to nine or more times during a nova round... all at melee range or 120 ft range complete unhindered... utilizing a -3/+10 mechanism at will...

Do the first and third benefits of Crossbow Expert turn a hand crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon? The short answer is no.

The first benefit of the feat lets you ignore the loading property (PH, 147) of the hand crossbow if you’re proficient with that weapon. The upshot is that you can fire it more than once if you have a feature like Extra Attack. You’re still limited, however, by the fact that the weapon has the ammunition property (PH, 146). The latter property requires you to have a bolt to fire from the hand crossbow, and the hand crossbow isn’t going to load itself (unless it’s magical or a gnomish invention). You need to load each bolt into the weapon, and doing so requires a hand.

To dig deeper into this point, take a look at the following sentence in the definition of the ammunition property: “Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack.” The sentence tells us two important things. First, you’re assumed to be drawing—that is, extracting with your hand—the ammunition from a container. Second, the act of drawing the ammunition is included in the attack and therefore doesn’t require its own action and doesn’t use up your free interaction with an object on your turn.

What does that all mean for a hand crossbow? It means Crossbow Expert makes it possible to fire a hand crossbow more than once with a feature like Extra Attack, provided that you have enough ammunition and you have a hand free to load it for each shot.

Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a hand crossbow and then fire it again as a bonus action? It does! Take a look at the feat’s third benefit. It says you can attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack action to attack with a one-handed weapon. A hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon, so it can, indeed, be used for both attacks, assuming you have a hand free to load the hand crossbow between the two attacks.

Do the first and third benefits of Crossbow Expert turn a hand crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon? The short answer is yes.

You need a hand free, which is not a problem since all you are carrying is your single hand crossbow! You need plenty of ammo, as if that was a problem.

All in all, I strongly suspect the devs themselves aren't clear on exactly how powerful the SS+CE combo is. It certainly appears as if the Sage doesn't understand how his own game works...

It's all there, right in the answer. All the pieces are there, only he puzzles them together to form a "no" when it to me is immediately apparent the puzzle forms a "yes"...

I can only understand the answer if given by someone using the scimitar + hand crossbow as their unquestioned starting point. And yes, the ammunition loading is an issue if you hold something in your other hand. But you don't have to - the feat expressly allows you to do your main action attacks with the same hand crossbow you're then using to make your bonus action attack!

It gets worse - you pretty much MUST use a single hand crossbow. Any other configuration actively does not work; since you must have a hand free to load it.

So it's not just that the feat can be used to turn a hand crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon, it MUST be used to turn a hand crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon (at least if you want to make your maximum number of attacks each round).

 

[clearstream]

I definitely do not want to include hand crossbows into the group that recieves bonuses; the ability to "dual wield" it (with a melee weapon) is cool (if not outright powerful) enough. To me, hand crossbows are completely different from regular crossbows, and I don't foresee any mix-ups. Also: very few NPCs will ever use hand crossbows, as opposed to regular ones - this feat is meant to encourage and explain why hapless NPCs favor crossbows (among other things).

I feel like either version removes any danger of the feat being over-powered. My angle is more that this is for players who want to be "expert" with a crossbow, rather than for hapless NPCs (who we can simply assign attack and damage values to).

[Edit: you never claim this] Conversely, it's only hand crossbows that "need" the exception to disadvantage-in-melee; two-handed crossbows (light and heavy) should remain ranged weapons - and ranged weapons should remain disadvantaged in melee in my strongly held opinion

Agreed! And further I believe using extra attacks at range should remain the province of bows. For me the crossbow is the low fire rate, easier to be accurate with, reasonable single-shot damage. So with the changes that our versions share, we robustly protect melee and differentiate crossbows and bows. With the latter paying off more handsomely for skill (extra attacks).

The attack bonus, on the other hand, I'm not sure what you gain by adding more than +2 at higher levels. A static bonus does remain equally desirable at any level; I simply don't see why high-level adventurers need a higher bonus. A crossbow isn't a sniper's weapon, it's just a weapon useful in the hands of untrained rabble. I'd much rather reserve any proficiency based feats for master archers. Granting a level 20 rogue a +6 bonus to crossbow attacks is outright broken; that's like a high-level magic weapon right there.

If you ask me why heavy crossbows get the damage bonus but not light crossbows, that's a much more open issue. I guess my answer at the mo' is simply to create a larger difference between a "vanilla" (light) crossbow and a heavy one; hopefully turning NPCs equipped with heavy crossbows into something that give players pause, at least briefly and even if only at low levels

That reflects a difference in our design goals and your solution is reasonable for a feat intended for NPCs. I am prioritising players. I'd like to avoid overshadowing if taken at level 1 (not so easy, but at least to try) and make the feat retain relevancy for longer. Given it makes you "expert" I felt drawing on "Expertise" from Rogue guided toward offering high accuracy (or we can think of it as easier use).

 

[CapnZapp]

Okay, Klaude

 

[Ancalagon]

So it's not just that the feat can be used to turn a hand crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon, it MUST be used to turn a hand crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon (at least if you want to make your maximum number of attacks each round).

I completely agree with your analysis.

There are two problems though.

1: I'm rather bothered, stylistically, by the notion of loading a hand crossbow with a hand that's holding a sword/other weapon. Game balance wise it might be ok (it's certainly is better!), but stylistically ... hmm

2: The feat does nothing to address the cricket-bat wielding goblin wearing socks as armor archetype, archetype apparently meaning something that is older than 6 hours that at least 1 person knows about

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Thank you.

Yes, sadly the Sage was completely mistaken when he claimed the CE feat does not turn the crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon.

A "crossbow machinegun" is precisely what the raw rules lead to: characters running around with a single hand crossbow shooting up to nine or more times during a nova round... all at melee range or 120 ft range complete unhindered... utilizing a -3/+10 mechanism at will...


Do the first and third benefits of Crossbow Expert turn a hand crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon? The short answer is yes.

You need a hand free, which is not a problem since all you are carrying is your single hand crossbow! You need plenty of ammo, as if that was a problem.

All in all, I strongly suspect the devs themselves aren't clear on exactly how powerful the SS+CE combo is. It certainly appears as if the Sage doesn't understand how his own game works...

It's all there, right in the answer. All the pieces are there, only he puzzles them together to form a "no" when it to me is immediately apparent the puzzle forms a "yes"...

I can only understand the answer if given by someone using the scimitar + hand crossbow as their unquestioned starting point. And yes, the ammunition loading is an issue if you hold something in your other hand. But you don't have to - the feat expressly allows you to do your main action attacks with the same hand crossbow you're then using to make your bonus action attack!

It gets worse - you pretty much MUST use a single hand crossbow. Any other configuration actively does not work; since you must have a hand free to load it.

So it's not just that the feat can be used to turn a hand crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon, it MUST be used to turn a hand crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon (at least if you want to make your maximum number of attacks each round).

I'm not entirely sure who is "completely mistaken" here. A semiautomatic action is a self-loading and cocking action allowing a single shot for every pull of the trigger.

Sage advice clarifies that the feat does not change a hand crossbow into an auto-loading device, but that these actions must be performed manually with a free hand.

I think that you might be confusing the speed of operation (which I don't believe SA has commented on) with type of action (which they have.)

You can call it a "crossbow machinegun" to refer to the ridiculously fast rate of fire the feat enables. Doesn't change the fact that its still a single-shot weapon.

Now if you want to have the hand crossbow become an automagic weapon that draws, cocks, and loads itself without requiring a free hand, you could create a magic item that does so easily.

 

[clearstream]

Okay, Klaude

Heh. For reference, where I am right now with Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter
Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls. Your ranged weapon attacks downgrade half cover to none, and three-quarters cover to half. Once per turn, before you make an attack at normal range with a ranged weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a −5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.

Now does the scaling prof. bonus to attack make more sense? It enables shots in more difficult contexts. Taken together, a Rogue crossbow expert / sharpshooter at 11th level with 18 Dexterity (points buy, racial increase, one ASI) could at normal range (before magic)

hand crossbow 30'
d6+8+10 with +7 to attack
d6+8+6d6 with +12 to attack
34-74

heavy crossbow 100'
d10+8+10+6d6 with +7 to attack
25-64

rapier and hand crossbow
d8+4+6d6 with +8 to attack
d6+18 with +7 to attack
30-72

against a Fighter duelist with 20 Dexterity (points buy, racial increase, two ASIs) and say, Shield Master and Mobile
d8+7 with +9 to attack
d8+7 with +9 to attack
d8+7 with +9 to attack
24-45

The duelist benefits from AC +3, Initiative +1, +10' Speed, Dex save advantages (from SM), and ability to knock foes prone to gain advantage. Both avoid being locked in melee - Rogue through Cunning Action, Fighter through Mobile. I'd play either, they feel equally strong.

 

[CapnZapp]

I completely agree with your analysis.

There are two problems though.

1: I'm rather bothered, stylistically, by the notion of loading a hand crossbow with a hand that's holding a sword/other weapon. Game balance wise it might be ok (it's certainly is better!), but stylistically ... hmm

That is perfectly understandable. As long as we discuss that separately, without conflating this style issue with the very real problems core Crossbow Expert has.

2: The feat does nothing to address the cricket-bat wielding goblin wearing socks as armor archetype, archetype apparently meaning something that is older than 6 hours that at least 1 person knows about

Didn't we agree to discuss cricket in a new thread...?



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