Crossbow Expert redux

[CapnZapp]

edit in posting

error in posting

Bonus points for trying

 

[CapnZapp]

Fair enough; except you've just said that you are trying to avoid using ranged weapons at melee range, right? Is the "archetype" the exception to that? or is it someone hacking at someone nearby while getting off a cool ranged attack at the same time, sniping at the goblin that's trying to get away, or whatever?

What I want to avoid is the supremacy of ranged builds. An important building block of this supremacy is the ability to not be bothered by getting embroiled in melee. So that's what I'm taking away.

The scimitar and hand crossbow woman pictured is not a ranged build, so I'm not worried about her being able to shoot her bolt while in melee.

So the difference is:

On one hand, an archer. He is firing multiple arrows at range, and he needs to remain disadvantaged if he is caught in melee. He should feel the need to first escape melee before resuming fire (or switch to melee weapons).

On the other hand, our scimitar & hand crossbow gal. She should be able to fire her hand crossbow without disadvantage in melee, because she will always be in melee (since that's the only way to do damage with the scimitar).

So you see, the removal of "melee disadvantage" (RMD) doesn't help ranged builds in my version, since the hand crossbow can only ever be used for one attack (per action). This way, the RMD only becomes an enabler of one specific archetype

Your fourth bulletpoint accomplishes this (though I'd say "attack with a melee weapon one-handed" rather than "attack with a one-handed weapon").

Actually, the language is intentionally including the case where you have only your single hand crossbow. It is a very minor point, but still...

In my wording, you can fire it with your action and then again with your bonus action. In your wording, you cannot (since while the hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon, it is not a melee weapon)

This was a quirk of the original feat I saw no reason to remove.

Again thanks for your feedback

 

[Kobold Stew]

The scimitar and hand crossbow woman pictured is not a ranged build, so I'm not worried about her being able to shoot her bolt while in melee.

Potato potahto.

That's true for a fighter, ranger, paladin, or valour bard, but not for a cleric, rogue, or lore bard. I read the feat through the eyes of the latter, you are building it through the eyes of the former.

Actually, the language is intentionally including the case where you have only your single hand crossbow. It is a very minor point, but still...

I'd be clearer about this, as it looks like a loophole. Be transparent in your assumptions, which in this case again take you beyond your archetype.

 

[Ancalagon]

What ever you call the threads where this gal is featured

the scimitar-and-handcrossbow archetype

Again, *what archetype*. Just because there is an image of a person with a sword and a hand-crossbow doesn't make it an archetype!!! Do you know what happens when I google that? IT POINTS TO THIS THREAD!

Just because I say that goblins wielding cricket bats and wearing sock-armor is an archetype doesn't make it so.

I know that occasionally in movies you will see a musketeer type with a rapier and a hand crossbow but the thing is fired once, maybe twice at most in the fight, the rest is sword-work.

 

[TwoSix]

Again, *what archetype*. Just because there is an image of a person with a sword and a hand-crossbow doesn't make it an archetype!!! Do you know what happens when I google that? IT POINTS TO THIS THREAD!

Just because I say that goblins wielding cricket bats and wearing sock-armor is an archetype doesn't make it so.

I know that occasionally in movies you will see a musketeer type with a rapier and a hand crossbow but the thing is fired once, maybe twice at most in the fight, the rest is sword-work.

Actually, when I google image search "hand crossbow", pretty much every image that shows up of a fantasy character is either using a melee weapon and a hand crossbow, or dual-wielding hand crossbows. I found a picture of a miniature with a melee weapon and hand crossbow, as well. I think you may need to brush up on your archetype-fu.

 

[Ancalagon]

What are they supposed to do with their other hand? Pick their nose? That's the entire point of a hand crossbow, one hand is free!

GOBLIN WITH CRICKET BAT!

 

[CapnZapp]

Potato potahto.

That's true for a fighter, ranger, paladin, or valour bard, but not for a cleric, rogue, or lore bard. I read the feat through the eyes of the latter, you are building it through the eyes of the former.

Sure, but I still don't understand how you can use my version for a ranged build to immunize yourself against melee; my main criticism against the original version.

It's not that I am denying what you are saying, I honestly don't see it. Please visualize the case you are concerned about and help me understand.

I'd be clearer about this, as it looks like a loophole. Be transparent in your assumptions, which in this case again take you beyond your archetype.

It really is as clear as the PHB feat. It too reads at first blush as if they're talking about a melee main weapon, until you realize they don't.

That's not my defense, though, just a somewhat weak excuse.

It's entirely possible your criticism is valid even against the RAW feat, I've just never thought about it that way. So thank you.



Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[CapnZapp]

GOBLIN WITH CRICKET BAT!

Know what, Ancalagon, if you create a Cricket Expert feat, and you do it in a new thread, I hereby *promise* I'll critique it. Deal?

☺



Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[clearstream]

I'll have to think about this one.

Also needs to not say reach, but 5'. Ranged attackers don't have disadvantage when they are in reach of a hostile creature, unless that creature is also 5' away.

Additionally, do you intend dual hand crossbows to get that immunity? For me it makes most sense when a melee weapon is in the other hand. It's not OP either way.

 

[clearstream]

Crossbow Expert Feat
• +2 to attack with two-handed crossbows
• +5 to damage with heavy crossbows
• You don't suffer disadvantage when making a ranged attack with a hand crossbow when within reach of a hostile creature
• When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to load and attack with a hand crossbow.

Further marshalling my thoughts I dislike targeting the bonus at some but not all crossbows. I feel sure I'd forget that at some point and it leads to overhead without much payoff. I feel there's an opportunity to simplify that. It's also problematic to use "within reach" as a variant of the general rule for disadvantage with a crossbow, which is "within 5'". For completeness I feel it is also worth adding "you are holding" unless the intent is enabling a quickdraw of some sort (which sounds kind of cool, but seems unneeeded).

How about something like this

Crossbow Expert
When using a crossbow with which you are proficient, your proficiency bonus is doubled for attack rolls you make with it and you can add your proficiency bonus to its damage roll. When you use the Attack action to attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to load and attack with a hand crossbow you are holding. Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on attack rolls you make with hand crossbows.

[Edited to slightly tweak text; no change to design intent]