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D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Something people might not be aware of from 1e, I played 1e for years and missed this from the PHB. 1e PHB pg 9.

The premise of the game is that each player character is above average- at least in some respects -and has superior potential. Furthermore, it is usually essential to the character's survival to be exceptional (with a rating of 15 or above) in no fewer than two ability characteristics.

Just thought it might be of interest.

Right. Stats are very important in 1e. While the combat bonuses didn't kick in until 15+, PCs were expected to have them in no fewer than two stats. Class abilities weren't as important as they are in 5e, so stats had much greater prominence in 1e.
 

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Arial Black

Adventurer
Like I said. Blind as a bat. :cool:

Although it does state that the range is typical, which means there can be exceptions. Which makes sense - there's a difference between someone who's really, really clumsy and someone who has ALS and would have a dexterity of 1.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the 3-18 range that results from rolling 3d6 just gives you the beginning of the stat generation process. Other things happen later which may change these rolls, even beyond 3-18.

Racial adjustments, ASIs, cursed/blessed items, nasty accidents, all of these can add or subtract from the scores that were initially rolled on 3d6.

So the 3 isn't the minimum possible stat of any person you may meet! They would have had a minimum of 3 at the initial stage of their creation, but later misfortune may take a stat down to 2 or 1.

Probably took an arrow to the knee...

This also explains the part where the text seems to indicate that the scores of adventurers can reach 20 but NPCs only get to 18. The point is that adventurers get to 18 (mainly) through ASIs. ASIs come with character class levels, which come with experience points, which come with adventuring! The assumption is that non-adventurers do not have adventures! That's why they usually only get to 18; it's nothing to do with a rules-based hard cap.
 

Oofta

Legend
They are not going to waste valuable book space to tell you that 'nothing changed'! When you turn on the TV news, the newscaster tells you about new stuff. For example, it might be in the news that France has got itself a new president, but he doesn't waste half the broadcast time by telling us all the counties who have not changed presidents since yesterday!

The whole rulebook is like that. Each element it describes (race/class/feat/spell) tells us what this element alters. It only tells us what the element doesn't alter if the lack of such clarity would cause ambiguity.

In order for D&D 5E to remove the assumption of the 3d6 bell curve it would have to tell us what the 5E assumption is! If it did that then any old assumption would fall away.

Even so, there is no way that 5E would simply say something like, "NPCs are not rolled up on 3d6 in order, if that is what you're thinking!" They would simply print the new rule of what it now is.

They didn't. On top of this, every piece of evidence that does get printed in 5E regarding ability scores for average NPCs remains consistent with that 3d6 bell curve assumption.

If we compare the two sets of evidence, we might think that there is no certainty for that assumption, given the lack of specific verbiage. But crucially, there is far more evidence for that assumption than for any competing assumption.


Gygax wrote a mini essay concerning that very thing in the 1E DMG. In it, he mentioned that some players might think of the D&D Int stat as being IQ/10, or as a creature's IQ as being its Int score x 10. He was keen to point out that this is not the case; that IQ and Int measure related but different things (Int covers more things). Upshot being that the bell curve which applies to real world IQ scores simply is not the same bell curve that applies to D&D Int, or any other D&D ability score.

If there is a perceived disparity between the bell curves of D&D Int and real world IQ, it's not that the D&D bell curve is 'wrong', it's that it is wrong to assume that D&D Int is the same thing as real world IQ.

I had a long response, but there's nothing new here and hasn't been for a while.

Summary:
  • You keep insisting that everyone should know the rules from all previous games that had the label D&D. The the vast majority of people I've played with over the past few years have never played 1E. Out of dozens of people I can think of 1 or 2 others who have.
  • You pick and choose one random aspect (roll 3d6) while ignoring things that don't support your argument.
  • You say there are no rules for NPCs, but they've been pointed out many times. Starts on page 89 of the DMG.

Keep rinsing and repeating your statement all you want but the horse died a long time ago. Probably back in the 80s. :erm:

I agree that this version of the game evolved from a system that started in the 70s. It's why we use a range of 3-18 for ability scores and why we have things like OwlBears and Rust Monsters. I can't breath water even though some long dead ancestor had gills, I don't have fins, I don't have a tail and there is no assumption of 3d6 for ability scores for the general populace.

Have fun using it for your game if you want. And tell those darn kids to GET OFF THE LAWN! :D
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Right. Stats are very important in 1e. While the combat bonuses didn't kick in until 15+, PCs were expected to have them in no fewer than two stats. Class abilities weren't as important as they are in 5e, so stats had much greater prominence in 1e.
Class abilities were all-important in 1e. Want to pick a lock? You better be a Thief. But if you are, you can't wear plate, but if you're a fighter, you can, and your AC isn't much beyond the armor on your back.

In 5e, stats matter for the majority of the checks your PC might make, and class/level only matters to the few you're proficient in.

They are not going to waste valuable book space to tell you that 'nothing changed'!
Oh, they wast lots of the books' space, and it's not all that valuable. ;)

Some things just sink to the level of assumption. The game's been around 40 years, there are some things about it that just are and don't need to be constantly re-stated and re-invented. There are some - like hps - that are better left in the mud, so each faction can think they know what's 'really' under there.... ;)

In order for D&D 5E to remove the assumption of the 3d6 bell curve it would have to tell us what the 5E assumption is! If it did that then any old assumption would fall away.
Or the Implacable Order of the Holy Bovine would start the gaming apocalypse rather than allow the change to stand. :shrug:

Gygax wrote a mini essay concerning that very thing in the 1E DMG. In it, he mentioned that some players might think of the D&D Int stat as being IQ/10, or as a creature's IQ as being its Int score x 10. He was keen to point out that this is not the case; that IQ and Int measure related but different things (Int covers more things). Upshot being that the bell curve which applies to real world IQ scores simply is not the same bell curve that applies to D&D Int, or any other D&D ability score.
That's a convenient enough dodge, but it runs into the same sort of problem, it doesn't actually provide the explanation of what INT is modeling that needs to be so different from IQ.

It's really just saying "no, the system isn't realistic, suck it up." It should have just said 'screw realism' more openly. ;)

Y'know, one reason D&D resonates so passionately with nerds is that EGG was one of us: he just hated to be 'wrong.' ;>


You keep insisting that everyone should know the rules from all previous games that had the label D&D. The the vast majority of people I've played with over the past few years have never played 1E. Out of dozens of people I can think of 1 or 2 others who have.
Any of them entirely unaware of the idea of stats ranging from 3-18 and that corresponding to the result of rolling 3d6?

I agree that this version of the game evolved from a system that started in the 70s. It's why we use a range of 3-18 for ability scores and why we have things like OwlBears and Rust Monsters. I can't breath water even though some long dead ancestor had gills, I don't have fins, I don't have a tail and there is no assumption of 3d6 for ability scores for the general populace.
If evolution of primates worked like evolution of D&D, you'd at /least/ have opposable big toes at this point, probably a V dental arcade with prominent canines and a sagital crest, too. You'd definitely have returned to the trees.

Have fun using it for your game if you want. And tell those darn kids to GET OFF THE LAWN! :D
Get off my drought-tolerant CA-natives, you darn 20-30yo millennials!
 

Oofta

Legend
If evolution of primates worked like evolution of D&D, you'd at /least/ have opposable big toes at this point, probably a V dental arcade with prominent canines and a sagital crest, too. You'd definitely have returned to the trees.

Humans are pretty horribly designed because of inherited traits and evolution. Bad backs, problems with childbirth, achy feet, problems with wisdom teeth (there's no room for them to grow because our brain takes up too much room) the appendix, and so on. B-)

If older versions of the game (other than maybe 3.5) weren't labeled D&D you would call them different games that share a lot of similarities and concepts.

But just like PathFinder rules don't apply to 5E, 1E rules do not apply to 5E.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Humans are pretty horribly designed because of inherited traits and evolution. Bad backs, problems with childbirth, achy feet, problems with wisdom teeth (there's no room for them to grow because our brain takes up too much room) the appendix, and so on. B-)
The point being that D&D 'evolution' has not been a smooth forward process, 5e is consciously atavistic. It does not leave 1e behind, it fervently emulates it.

If older versions of the game (other than maybe 3.5) weren't labeled D&D you would call them different games that share a lot of similarities and concepts.

But just like PathFinder rules don't apply to 5E, 1E rules do not apply to 5E.
People are clamoring for PF stuff to be added to 5e.
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
The point being that D&D 'evolution' has not been a smooth forward process, 5e is consciously atavistic. It does not leave 1e behind, it fervently emulates it.

Sure. Some of us assume that it emulates exactly as much of 1e as the designers chose to include in the 5e books.

Others seem to assume everything not specifically excluded is still included, even if you have no knowledge of 1e.

One of these assumptions strikes me as being less reasonable than the other. :)
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
Sure. Some of us assume that it emulates exactly as much of 1e as the designers chose to include in the 5e books.
It leaves a lot between the lines, too, and 5e's natural language is not exact to begin with.

You can fill in the blanks with knowledge of any or all past editions, or sticking to emulating one past edition that you prefered, when making your rulings.
 


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